Public Pregnancy

[SingleDad]

Cristi:

But he isn’t your property either. Until he is age 18, he is my responsibility. I am responsible for his every move, until such time as the law says I am not. If I allow my child to feel that society has a responsibility towards him, he will feel no responsibility towards society.

But if you really feel an obligation to my kids, well, I would like to send them to college…

I know you’re kidding. But there’s a core of real debate here.

The child’s is no one’s property. He is his own person. You have a lot of responsibility, the other members of society have some responsibility. If someone harms your child, you can count on the full power of society to assume responsibility for apprehending and punishing that person.

Even if that person is you.

Notthemama:

So, SingleDad (and Andros don’t want to leave you out of the party), you are cordially invited over here any time to explain it to these people, because I’m with Eve–I don’t want to get any attack dogs sicced on me. (The people on the east have a big Dalmatian, and the people on the west have a fully-trained attack grandpa known as “Dar”.)

Confronting a dangerous person with little or no chance of success is by definition not reasonable intervention. I don’t hold that a person is under an obligation to get himself killed.

If social services will not intervene then you have no reasonable or lawful options for intervening. However, this is a different reason for not intervening than the assertion that any harm a parent does to his or her child is a priori.

Dangerosa: There’s a clear obligation for a salesperson to refuse to sell to a person they have reason to believe will use the product for illegal or harmful purposes. For instance, it’s illegal for a bartender to sell a person a drink if that person is visibly and provably intoxicated.

We are implementing a new item of ethics: Since we now know that alcohol, nicotine and caffiene usage has a significant probability of causing birth defects, it now considered unethical for a woman to ingest those substances. Since this is a new item, and all the facts aren’t in, we are rightly reluctant to embed the provisions in law, depending instead (for now) on social pressure.

Social pressure has the advantage of being at worst only mildly coercive. It has the disadvantage of often being intrusive. But it’s all part of evolving social mores.

Ten years ago, it was considered rude and intrusive for a non-smoker to ask a smoker to put it out in a public place. Ten years ago, I got a lot of “smoking is bad for you” as the ethics were not fully determined. I took it with reasonable grace as long as the person didn’t become too persistent about it.

Today the law mandates that that smoking in a public place is unethical; rightly so, I must add. Since then, I smoke outside or in private, and I get very little intrusion.

---

No matter where you go, there you are.

[SingleDad]

Oops:

However, this is a different reason for not intervening than the assertion that any harm a parent does to his or her child is a priori none of your business.

---

No matter where you go, there you are.

[The_LION]

Some of the pro-intervention opinions that I have read in this topic scare me!
Where do you draw the line, water is dangerious because babys can drown in it so make it a crime to bath your child or children are killed in car crashes so make it against the law to transport your baby in an automobile.
Power lines, computer and television screens produce electromagnetic radation that may be harmfull so ban them also.
Cooking causes burns and scalding so make it a crime to cook a meal.
Walking down the street is dangerious so make all pregnant women live in a box to safeguard the unborn child.
When people are that quick to trample on another persons freedom over something that may or maynot be harmfull then nobody has any rights anymore.
Just for the record my wife( Ayesha ) smoked,drank and used soft drugs while she was pregnant with out son and he turned out just fine,and I am willing to bet that most of your parents smoked and/or drank prior to your births so how do you explain how you turned out?

Peace
t lion

---

32 Bit Operating System
02 Bit Operator

[Ayesha]

I’d just like to set the record straight reguarding what Lion had to say about what I did during my pregnancy.

I did smoke cigarettes, I did smoke pot, and I did drink 3 or 4 times during the time I was pregnant.

I am not proud of that. However, being the type of person I was at 22, if someone had gotten in my face about it I would not have listened.

If you feel you must say something to a pregnant woman, why not just say something like, you know, doctors say ___________ and ____________ or ____________ (insert whatever activity you are concerned about), may harm your baby.
Leave it at that.

If the mother will listen , fine. If not, and there is damage to her child she will have to live with that.

Ayesha

[Dangerosa]

But where is the research that alcohol, nicotine & caffine IN MODERATION cause significant birth defects? Caffine may double the risk of miscarriage in the first trimester, when more than two cups of coffee a day are consumed - my pregnancy materials don’t talk about birth defects. Tobacco’s biggest issue is low-birthweight, and the attendant problems of low birthweight, although there are a lot of infant deaths due to low birthweight and prematurity - 5,600 a year according to "What to Expect When Youre Expecting. Remember there are 6 million babies born each year in the US. And if we are so worried about these issues as a society, why aren’t we worried about the pesticides a pregnant woman ingests.

Yes, society bears responsiblity if my child is less than perfect - guess what, my children are less than perfect - so are yours. As a parent, I don’t always make the healthiest, best decision for my kids - sometimes they watch tv instead of doing something interactive, because then I can wash dishes. Sometimes they eat more refined sugar than is good for them. I feed them meat, because we are a family of meat eaters, even though I know that a vegetarian diet is healthier. I let my toddler play with my sisters large dog. I work outside the home, because that is the right thing to do for me. SingleDad, you probably want to slap each person who points out that studies show kids do much better in two parent families. But you probably aren’t running out to get married just to give your kids that benefit (and I don’t think you should!).

By the way, did you guys notice in the link that children whose mothers drank in moderation during their pregnancies scored HIGHER on some developmental tests at eighteen months?

BTW, I seriously cut my caffine intake during pregnancy - maybe three cups of coffee a week. Probably less. I had two drinks during pregnancy, once before I knew I was pregnant I had a mimosa to toast a special event and once late in the third trimester on my doctors advice to control agitation. I have never smoked or done illegal drugs. I didn’t take my prenatal vitamins, because they made me sick, but did take some supplements. I breastfed my daughter for six months, almost exclusively, limiting caffine and not drinking alcohol during that time. I had a medicated delivery. I had toximia during my last month. As a result, I gained way more weight than the books said (and got the attendant busybody questions), but went home from the hospital six pounds heavier than my prepregnancy weight – all water! (I did, however, use my microwave). As an adult, I looked into risks, weighed risks and benefits, and this is the pregnancy I chose – but I wouldn’t want you guys to think I’m Eve’s neighbor.

My son I did not gestate, he’s adopted. His b-mom used an unknown amount of alcohol during pregnancy and her smoking status was also unknown. He was low birthweight, full gestation (4.5 pounds). He is from South Korea, where babies tend to be a little smaller, but that is still a small baby. We suspect either diet or smoking, or a misreported due date. There are other possiblities, less likely, like uterine fibroids. He is developmentally on target, healthy, a little small for his age (but he’s Asian, and we use the American charts here, he’s close to average on the Chinese charts).

You guys are hinting at my biggest problem with the busybodies. The majority of women who are pregnant take very good care of themselves. The majority of them (and even the majority of women who are like Eve’s neighbor) have healthy babies. (Sounds to me like the problems with Eve’s neighbor’s kids aren’t related to their health, but their upbringing). But for the cases where tragedy occurs, the woman carries a lot of guilt, most which she puts on herself. “Did walking through that smokey bar hurt the baby? Did that chicken in wine sauce - I thought the alcohol would have cooked away?” If we could acknowledge that a pregnant woman does not have total control over the outcome of her pregnancy (and, in my mind, very little actual control over the outcome at all), it might help when well-intentioned people do experience these tragedies.

[SingleDad]

Some of the pro-intervention opinions that I have read in this topic scare me!
Where do you draw the line, water is dangerious because babys can drown in it so make it a crime to bath your child…

On the other side, where do you draw the line? Why shouldn’t I be allowed to drive drunk or at 190 mph? Why shouldn’t I drop bowling balls from my 10th story balcony onto a crowded sidewalk? I don’t mean to hurt anyone?

The answer, of course, is that we weigh the risks (especially to others) and rewards; if the non-trivial risks outweigh the rewards, we prohibit the activity.

But where is the research that alcohol, nicotine & caffine IN MODERATION cause significant birth defects?

Not being a scientist or in any danger of getting anyone pregnant, I’m arguing general principles. If an activity is not risky, science can determine that fact, and it should not be prohibited. We are in the process of negotiation and investigation, trying to figure out what the correct balance is.

You guys are hinting at my biggest problem with the busybodies. The majority of women who are pregnant take very good care of themselves.

Agreed. And that’s why the ethics we’re discussing haven’t been written into law. You won’t face imprisonment, fines or even police harassment unless your behavior is extreme. Personally, I would rather deal with a period of busybody-ness than an immediate enactment into law or an irrevocable permission. YMMV.

If we could acknowledge that a pregnant woman does not have total control over the outcome of her pregnancy (and, in my mind, very little actual control over the outcome at all), it might help when well-intentioned people do experience these tragedies.

Acknowleged. But what we are debating here is:
[ul][li]Whether society may at all enforce an ethical duty of a gestating mother towards her future child.[/li][li]The nature of that duty[/li][li]How it should be enforced or encouraged right now with limited but persuasive information.[/ul][/li]

No matter where you go, there you are.

[Dangerosa]

I think I might support prosecution of women whose babies are born with fetal alcohol syndrome. But, a woman would have had to have had a blood alcohol level in excess of x during her pregnancy in order to prosecute. Like drunk driving - one beer won’t get you thrown in the slammer.

Illegal drugs should be prosecuted like illegal drugs. Should drugs be made legal, then consequences should be looked at.

I think the jury is out on the effects of caffine (I don’t think an increase risk of miscarriage during the first trimester can be prosecutable). Smoking is bad for everyone, but I don’t think that would be prosecutable either.

[Sterra]

Basically the complaint is that pregnant women get waited on a little more than the average person. If you feel like your being babied then think of people who are dressed by servants.

[ChrisCTP]

Perhaps coincidentally, my wife’s aunt was also pregnant at the same time. She smoked, drank occasionally, and even had some pot. Her child has a whole in his heart, and needs surgery to correct it. Is there a connection between this defect and her behavior? I don’t know, but if I was her I wouldn’t feel to good about myself.

I don’t know about the connection, Scylla. Could be, might not be. Personally, before I knew I was pregnant, I had a couple drinks and I was smoking two packs of Camel Lights a day. My doctor told me not to worry about the drinks and cut down (preferably quit) smoking. I’m an addict. I wanted to quit for my baby, I really did…I just couldn’t. (I didn’t drink after that, and I did switch to Ultra Lights, FWIW. And I did cut out one of those packs per day.) YMMV, but Bowen was not born prematurely, in fact he was two weeks late and I needed to induce my labor. He was not underweight, either. He weighed in at six pounds, six ounces…not too shabby considering all I wanted to eat during my pregnancy was soup and vegetables. He’s perfectly healthy, undeniably pretty, and extremely smart for a child of two.

Of course, it’s best to not smoke, not drink, and adjust your diet and exercise habits. However, humans are imperfect, and pregnant women are achy and pissed off. I know that I certainly did not appreciate unsolicited advice from strangers…and I sure as hell ain’t gonna try and force-feed “good behavior” on a pregnant girl I’ve never met before. Fact remains, it is her body, it is her baby, and any damage that occurs to either is her responsibility to take care of.

How the child is actually raised is another debate entirely, as far as I’m concerned.

---

My Excruciatingly Commonplace Homepage: FireMoon

[Glenoled]

Mom in law’s best friend is a bartender. A girl my wife went to school with was 3 and a half months pregant and at the bar wanting yet another (after five drinks already), the bartender refused to serve her and cut her off due to the pregnancy, and was fired when the pregnant lady complained. She eventually got her job back after four months of formal complaints against her employer. So much for intervention.

---

I don’t suffer from insanity…
I enjoy every minute of it!