DIVEMASTER (and I hope you won’t mind if I don’t capitalize that from now on), I think you may be overlooking the fact that public school system has a certain level of spending which they must maintain, irrespective of how many kids attend. The public schools would be left with all the oldest, most decrepit physical plants; what new private school is going to rent a rundown storefront, etc., if something better is available? Or even build a new building? Also, the private schools would ‘skim’ the best students, leaving (as I said, and I think Gateway expanded on) the ones who require the most actual money-per-pupil spending. Then there’s the matter of busing – public schools have to send out buses to collect all the kids in a dispersed district. The private schools can essentially make that a parental responsibility.
Moving away from vouchers…
I dug up some figures on the relationship of educational funding to what actually makes it to the classroom level:
From Education Update, Fall 1990: "Studies of the Milwaukee and NYC school systems show < 50% of funding actually reached the school, and < 30% went to classroom services. [It’s probably worse now].
Also, teacher’s salaries have been a declining percentage of school budgets, as bureaucracies and other non-instructional costs absorbed the growing sums being spent on the educational establishment."
Its like a huge monster that feeds at the expense of the youngsters.
BTW, I really appreciate all the comments; my mom will be thrilled when I share them with her.
Divemaster said:
I don’t think the education system can be solely blamed. My brother teaches at an inner city school and some stories about the students and the parents.
Students who do well in class are harassed by their peers as “acting white”. Other students are so starved for attention that it becomes impossible to control them.
If a kid is out of control, the parents don’t want to be bothered: “it’s your problem”. You can’t even threaten to tell their parents, because the kids know they don’t care. Or the care too much: Parents have accused my brother (white) of racism if he gives a kid a bad grade or disciplines them (try and remove a “racism” mark from your dossier, he says, it’s always guilty until proven innocent).
He agrees that poverty may have a lot to do with the problems he deals with. However, he amusingly notes the kids sport the latest Air Jordans and clothing lines that he could not buy on his teachers salary.
“It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in an argument” - William McAdoo
This may really belong on the JokeThread, but I just came across it this morning, and since it’s on topic:
It’s graduation day, and everybody’s going to get their diploma but Jon. At the assembly, the entire senior class stands up
and shouts “Let Jon graduate, let Jon graduate!”
The principal agrees to give Jon one last chance. “If I have five apples in my right hand and five in my left hand, Jon,
how many apples do I have?” he asked.
Jon thought long and hard and then said: “Ten.”
And the entire senior class stood up and shouted “Give Jon another chance, give Jon another chance!”
Actually, DIF, that is a true story, though it was college, not high school. It occurred at Texas A&M.
Another true story: an Aggie and a Longhorn went down to South Padre Island for spring break. The Aggie asked the Longhorn how he could be sure to score while they were partying down there, and the Longhorn said that if he really wanted to impress the chicks, he should shove a potato down into his swim trunks. The next day the Aggie ran into the Longhorn, and furiously berated him for telling him to do such a thing–instead of being impressed, all the girls laughed at him. The Longhorn said, “well, show me what you did.” Then he said, “you doofus, you’re supposed to put the potato in the front!”
Was that off topic?
DHR
I read the potato joke in Playboy’s Book of Party Jokes about 20 years ago. And I seriously doubt the entire A&M Senior Class couldn’t count to 10; but at least that was one I hadn’t heard before.
Sorry to poop your party.
(Boy, this thread really has jumped the track).
As I was reading down the posts again, something else occured to me. I want to throw this suggestion out there and see what ya’ll think about it. What if we re-structure the entire school system. Make the Basic education that all children are due only go to age 16 or so. Anyone that would like to take some of the more advance subjects (Trig, Physics, etc) would have to have the grades and record to qualify. This would grant everyone at least the basics, and allow those that are interested in education continue with perhaps more resources available.
A big problem with this of course is “What to do with the ones that don’t choose to continue?” Well, I don’t have any great ideas, maybe change some of the labor laws to allow them to work full-time?..Just an idea…
<i>I haven’t lost my mind, I have a tape backup around somewhere.</i>
I wanted to point out that the idea that before public education, education was universal is just plain silly.
I’m not a teacher, but it has always been a secret little dream of mine. After hearing horror stories behind the scenes from my teacher friends and what Divemaster has brought to light, I think I will stick with planning on being a volunteer in school and raise the roof at the PTA meetings.
My sister in law teachs first grade and they are not allowed to teach phonics to the students. (She’s at an upper middle class nearly all white school in MI.) Hello, but how in the fuck do you learn how to pronounce anything if you don’t learn the basics? A friends wife went to a school where phonics were not taught ( she’s 35) and has the toughest time pronouncing big words.
I am considering becoming a teacher. I honestly look forward to the good things about teaching, and I honestly fear all the bad stuff I’ve heard. I guess I’ll see if I can cut it once I do my student teaching.
But one thing does stick in my craw.
I’m leaving a field where - if I got a Redhat Linux certification, an MCSE, or Cisco certification - I could make $75,0000 to $120,000 a year. The best I expect to ever make in public teaching, after a lot of seniority, is maybe $50,000.
Not that it’s about the money. It really isn’t. But sheesh . . .
I learned phonics waaaaaaay back when in elementary school. What I don’t understand is why it’s now being heralded as some breakthrough learning tool. It’s great, yes, and it does work. But it’s not new. But I don’t understand why your sister-in-law isn’t allowed to teach it. That really sucks.
At UNC-Chapel Hill, TAs in the freshman composition program are not allowed to teach grammar, although they all sneak it in anyhow. The rationale for this, according to the administration, is that “studies have shown that students’ grammar doesn’t improve from formal instruction.” (Well, maybe not, but it sure as hell won’t improve from a total lack of instruction EITHER.) Also, the Composition Gods in my department advocate this touchy-feely group-learning method that basically boils down to the blind leading the blind; woe betide the instructor who presumes to actually teach the class. Aaarrghh. Just thought I’d let you know things don’t improve at the college level.
Snotty linguistic aside:
“Hello, but
how in the fuck do you learn how to pronounce anything if you don’t learn the
basics?”
Although I recall learning some phonics myself, I’m not really sure how useful they are, being as English is the least phonetic language I can think of. Ex. “The tough coughs as he ploughs the dough” -Dr. Seuss
Shirly, the problem isn’t that they don’t use phonics, it is that they would try to make phonics the only method to teach reading. Phonics is good if the kid doesn’t know how to read already, but trying to force a kid to use a phonetic method of reading after they already learned to read is very damaging. It took me a long time to recover from being forced to learn a phonetic system of reading after I had already taught myself how to read using a visual system. They have to come up with a way to engage the kids reading interests in a manner the kid responds to. They go to a phonic method only, and just as many kids will fail because they don’t think in terms of sound, but in terms of visual images, or associative methods.
My biggest complaint about reading is that kids are not encouraged to challenge themselves in reading. They still get heaps of praise when they read Clifford the big red dog slobbers all over the place in third grade, and the kid that is reading Asimov is being ignored/harassed because it takes him four times longer to read a book, never mind the book is 20,000 words longer.
>>Being Chaotic Evil means never having to say your sorry…unless the other guy is bigger than you.<<
—The dragon observes
Narile wrote:
Don’t tell me they’ve abolished “gifted” classes, too!
(BTW, Clifford the Big Red Dog Slobbers All Over the Place a GREAT title for a preschooler’s book! Have you found a publisher yet? 
)
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Melatonin and Narile, English has strange orthography and I’m sure that a phonics program can be abused as easily as any other. The basic problem is that forbidding phonics reduces the teaching of English to sight reading in which each word is an image that must be memorized–sort of like learning Chinese. (I know, the Chinese can do it, but they do not have an alphabetic structure that allows for anything else and so their teaching is geared to that approach.) Narile, you are obviously literate, but I have worked with the products of sight-reading classes (and at least one self-taught individual) who cannot deal with new words. If they come across a new word in text, they have to write it down and go find a dictionary (not a bad idea–if they bother) when a phonics-trained person can sound out the word and will often recognize the word as one that they know only from hearing it.
Phonics is not the be-all and end-all for teaching reading, but, for all its exceptions, English still has fairly normalized pronunciation.
Look at the preceding sentence. Once the digraphs “th” “ch” and “ph” have been taught, that whole sentence can be “sounded out” by any phonics-trained first grader with only some help needed on the "ea"s and the "tion"s. There is an inner city school in Houston where they decided to try an experiment a couple of years ago, teaching a heavy phonics-based program to kids whose predecessors have been failing state tests at more then 90% for several years. The year they instituted the change, those classes shot up above the 95th percentile for that age group for the whole state of Texas. Project LEARN (promoting reading for illiterate adults) uses phonics and generally helps adults read in fewer than twelve weeks. (And adults do not have the mental openness to language that children below the age of 10 do.)
With those sorts of results, I don’t think forbidding phonics is a really good idea.
Tom~
I couldn’t even wait to read all the other replies before writing this. Those policies make me absolutely SICK! I’m still in school (Junior in High school), and sure, it may seem like a “Dream come true” to some people, but I would be furious with a system like that. I’d better stop now before I get out of hand.
White Wolf
“Honesty is the best policy, but insanity is a better defense.”
“Half the world is composed of idiots, the other half of people clever enough to take indecent advantage of them.”
About the gifted classes:
Yes they’re there, but the people in them aren’t all that gifted. I go to a Catholic High School, but I have friends in public school who are at the top of their class,and I don’t want to sound like I’m boasting, but, my friends from my school and I could run circles around them. They just don’t get challenged. At all. I’d be bored stiff.
Tomndeb, I think you’re probably right in saying that phonics constitute a valid pedagogical approach for some students. Forbidding the use of a potentially useful teaching technique is, indeed, a bad idea. Really, the most effective approach to teaching any material in the classroom is a mixed-bag of techniques, because not everyone learns the same way.
(Tangent)
It would be great if every student could somehow be guaranteed the opportunity to learn new material in the way most comfortable to him. If students could be guaranteed that they would learn. If some local bigwig kook would not have the right to determine phonetics, multiplication tables, ‘Diary of Anne Frank,’ of the theory of evolution unteachable fables of Satan (hey there, Satan!), well, wouldn’t that be great?
White Wolf said:
And remember, the teacher’s fully expect the kids in “regular” classes to be much slower and not nearly as smart as the kids in the gifted programs. Think they get any challenges? No. They treat the “regular” kids like idiots, and that’s exactly how those kids turn out.
Cessandra
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