Public School Horror Stories

Great Debates
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The basic problem is that forbidding phonics reduces the teaching of English to sight reading in which each word is an image that must be memorized–sort of like learning Chinese. (I know, the Chinese can do it, but they do not have an alphabetic structure that allows for anything else and so their teaching is geared to that approach.)

I believe that both Taiwan and mainland China use a phonetic system to introduce kids to reading and writing, though not the same one. And although characters in Chinese don’t have any direct phonetic component, they do incorporate a system of “radicals” whereunder almost every character is composed of smaller, more basic characters, some of which are used to at least give a hint for pronunciation.

Nobody’s brought up the subject yet, but I feel that any comparison between Asian and American education systems would be a study in extremes that wouldn’t lead to any practical conclusions. Kids in Taiwan are much better prepared for standardized tests like SATs, GREs, and the GMAT, but I don’t feel that they get enough training in abstract thinking skills–i.e., too much rote memorization. That’s not good either.

DHR

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Another question: Is home schooling an option?

Assuming that one parent has the free time and the dedication, do you all think that a kid might have get a better education by learning at home up through middle school or high school, and then taking a standardized test like the GED? Or would that kill his or her chances of getting into a good college?

DHR

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Here’s a link to an interview and discussion with author Martin Gross who wrote the book: Conspiracy Of Ignorance. The book deals with the realities of public school systems.

If you have RealPlayer, then go to this link and click on September 23:
http://www.broadcast.com/shows/endoftheline/99archives.stm

I listened and found it to be an eye opener!

Contestant #3

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Doghouse Reilly said something along these lines, but it got cut off and I had to fake it:
"Another question: Is home schooling an option?

                Assuming that one parent has the free time and the dedication, do you all think that a
                kid might have get a better education by learning at home up through middle school or
                high school, and then taking a standardized test like the GED. Or would that ruin their chance of getting into a good college?"

I believe homeschooling is set up in such a way that a student needn’t take the GED in order to receive a highschool diploma. They receive a ‘real’ diploma.

The GED itself isn’t as highly valued as a ‘real’ highschool diploma, largely I think because it’s not a real brain-strangler. It also doesn’t demonstrate one’s mastery of new material over the course of several years, as a highschool transcript might. Many four-year colleges will not accept a GED (even when accompanied by ACT/ SAT scores); you can pretty much forget about entering the freshman class at COlumbia without a highschool transcript.

That doesn’t, however, prevent a GED student from entering community college and transferring to a university where s/he can pursue further education after garnering a few credits and ‘proving’ herself.

Life is short. Make fun of it.

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We’ve been hearing a lot about the oppression of teachers in the public education system, but what about the kids? DIVEMASTER, how can you live in Louisiana and not mention the “Respect Law” that requires the students to address teachers and other adults in school “yes, sir " or “yes, m’am”? The High School I went to ( Riverdale in Jefferson, LA! I’m not afraid to say it! ) had some real concentration camp rules for students. ( This probably belongs in the “Another Stupid School Board Decision” thread, but it’s found its home here 'cause it’s relevant. ) No gathering in groups of more than 3, for instance. And the disciplinarians do really dumb things, too. One kid was forced to relinquish a Looney Tunes t-shirt because Yosimite Sam was carrying guns. And on the middle school side a kid was expelled for carrying a weapon: his keychain had a 3/4” pocket knife!

Basically, the administration sees students as a bunch of feral hyenas, who will erupt in violence and depravity if given the slightest provocation. And this causes lawsuits, which are bad because they cost the administration money. So they don’t give the students an inch of freedom.

This prisonlike discipline combines with the aforementioned non-teaching to create a truly horrid environment for public school students. The worst of both worlds: the Iron Grip of discipline associated with military schools, without the educational advantages. Is there any wonder why so many kids hate school? It’s obvious to them that the school doesn’t care about them, so they don’t care for it. They become desperate for attention, they act out, and are treated with no mercy. Finding no freedom in school, they leave its confines. Not learning anything there, they turn to other sources for their education. In the worst cases this means turning to the streets, but more often they just enter a lifetime of menial jobs. This is bad for everyone.

How did things turn out this way? Well, I’d have to say that it started with the shift in emphasis from education to certification. The goal now is to get students graduated with as efficiently as possible. If students don’t meet the standards, simply lower the standards. If they can’t pass standardized tests, give out the answers ahead of time. Make things easy so that it is no longer necessary to actually learn anything to advance and eventually graduate.

The frustration this causes in the students, who see through the charade, leads to a restless student body who are likely to get into trouble. Stricter rules are enforced, “to protect the students,” of course. Then a kid stays after school and climbs on the roof. when he falls off, his parents sue the school for not doing enough to prevent it. This opens the door for Lawsuit Mania. Any time something bad happens to a student on the campus, lawyers come
out of the woodwork. The school board reacts by enforcing draconian laws, leaving nothing to chance.

The worse things get for the students, the less they try. A kid who keeps hearing from teachers and other authority figures; “You’re supid,” You’re nothing but trouble," Etc, will generally believe it. These students will become exactly what the non-educators and the babysitters in the school system think they are. They do poorly in school and cannot graduate. Return to step one.

I’ve written the extensive rant about public education I’ve always wanted to. Thank you to all those who read it despite its legnth. I hope this will help to alleviate my newbie status. Just to let you know that I’m not all talk, I will post another rant on possible solutions to the public education problem sometime in the very near future. But now I am TIRED and must go to bed. Good night to all of you on the SDMB, I really feel at home here and would love to have coffee with every one of you.

God, I’m getting REALLY corny! Better go to bed now…

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It wasn’t as long as I thought it was, and that ending clearly shows signs of sleep depravation. Sheesh, I feel dorky! Hope everyone ignores that!

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Yes, #00: The Fool,
I am from Louisiana; however, I have not lived there for about 8 years or so. I had heard about the ‘respect’ rules you mentioned, but only through the newspaper. My intention for starting this post was specifically to tell of experiences my mom is having in the public schools. I did not want to post things I had read in books, saw on the web, or read in the newspaper. Else, I could have posted a 400 page book.

Offhand, I can think of about 20 subjects pertinent, though maybe tangential, to my original posts; and I’m glad to see that many of those are being debated, your opinions included. That was the whole idea behing posting in this forum.

I think many school systems are no longer allowed to ‘track’ gifted students, lest it cause esteem problems with non-tracked students. Instead, the gifted are thrown into the general mix. The problem comes in, IMO, when the general mix is taught to the lowest level. The teacher has to slow the class down or ‘dumb-down’ the material to make sure the slowest kids aren’t left behind. I think this does a disservice to all the kids, regardless of ability.

I also know that schools and teachers will often try to group students according to ability, even if it goes against official policy. They just try not to be real obvious about it.

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I’m bummed I never got a response to my inquiry…

…with the exception of smiling jaws, who found the mere suggestion that private education was nearly universal “silly.” I never said it was true, only that I’d read it numerous times. It sounds credible, though. Someone?

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The standardized reading/writing scores in Colorado came out this week. Result: BAD. Elem school kids are at about %50 of ability in both sujects, and Jr high students are not doing any better. Shows that they aren’t learning more and improving as they get older. Maybe the schools need to rethink their idea that the internet will teach kids and maybe spend some money on the teachers.

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Gateway: No, there was not universal education prior to the beginning of the 20th century.
“Educational opportunities were limited. While almost all Protestant religions shared a belief that it was necessary to be able to read the Scriptures for oneself (to avoid being sent to damnation by a priest who, maliciously or unintentionally, misled the soul–the so-called Devil Deceiver doctrine), there was little organized education to make that possible.” Everyday Life in Colonial America (From 1607-1783)

“Despite child labor laws, tens of thousands of children could be found working in shops and factories throughout the United States, sometimes ten and twelve hours per day, for negligible pay.” Everyday Life in the 1800s (This one doesn’t have a section about education, but one can assume that if they’re spending 10 hours a day working, they’re not spending much time getting educated.)

Now, I admit there’s 17 missing years (1783-1800) where the universal education could have been practiced, but I doubt it.

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First of all, Phouka, don’t despair. I know this is by no means universal, and it still doesn’t meet your salary possibilities in your current field, but teacher salaries in this area are definitely higher than what you quoted. In fact, several of the districts around here start in the thirties and go up into the 80,000 range.
Now, on to other things. About 6 or 7 years ago, our local elementary district started using a new remedial reading program (although they never call it “remedial”, of course) and spent $10,000 sending a teacher to New Zealand for the summer to learn it. They then regularly put articles in the local paper touting the success of the program on the primary grades. The problem was, when I started seriously looking at the numbers of children who were successfully completing the program, it came out to more than half of the students in those grades in the district. Obviously, the original teaching method they use doesn’t work. Why in the world didn’t they use that money to fix that program, or start a new one, instead of keeping it and adding a new one on top of it?!? (I know the first one didn’t work. I had to teach my son how to read when the school didn’t.)
I think the comment about certification was accurate. It isn’t as important that kids learn as that they graduate. I also think the “one size fits all” attitude is a big problem. My son’s high school handbook includes a statement to the effect that, “It is essential that all students complete a full four years of high school.” That’s nuts. I might have been more inclined to agree with the idea before I had a boy who would have benefited greatly from getting in, getting the necessary classes, and getting out. Every child doesn’t have the same needs, and for our public schools to pretend they do is ridiculous, especially since it usually results in things being set at the low end.
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