As a worker at Publix, I am curious as to the opinions of grocery shoppers out there. Do you like Publix? How does it compare to other grocery stores?
My main question: is it more beneficial for a company (a grocery store more specifically) to have workers in a union, or to strictly prohibit unions, as Publix does. They have never had a union, and maintain EXCELENT relations with workers, to the point that a union seems unnecesary. Whats the straight dope on unions?
We do not have Publix in this area so I cannot comment on the specifically.
My personal opinion of Unions, in a very general sense, is that they generally end up pretty corrupted and serving the aims of the union bosses rather than the interests of the members.
I have seen many strikes that are political in nature and in no way would benefit the striking workers. In several countries in Europe you can see how when the unions were so strong they pretty much ran the country, the economy went south fast.
One of the reasons the US economy is so much better than Europe is that there are fewer strikes, due to the unions not being so strong.
If you look at most big strikes after a few years, the workers are not better off. I recall the Big UPS strike about a couple years ago. It was purely political. The Union wanted to make a point and chose UPS like it could have chosen another company. The workers striked. In theory the company gave in but the fact is it was crippled and lost a ton of business to the competition. I do not think they have completely recovered and a lot of jobs were lost in the process. The union came out ahead though.
I would say a union would be useful and even necessary in a third world economy with high unemployment and bad work conditions. There they can bargain for better conditions.
In theory they could also serve a purpose in richer countries but it seems they just get corrupted and end up serving their bosses and their political interests rather than the people they represent.
Another case where I see a union as negative is the teachers union. They have so much political power that teachers are protected from any scrutiny and the whole of the population pays the price of having incompetent teachers.
Personally I do not think I would like to belong to a union. I prefer to negotiate individually with my employer and to discuss things informally with my fellow employees. I feel a Union would take away my freedom to negotiate my terms.
Just MHO.
Moderator, quick, toss this over into GD.
Unions are a vital and necessary balance to the vast power of corporate employers. Even with a union the power structure is strongly tilted towards the employer. People are quick to point out instances of union corruption, but many more examples of corporate employer lead abuses of power.
Labdude, if that is so, how is it that workers who are not in unions do just as well if not better?
Also, do you regard the teacher’s union as beneficial for society as a whole?
Can you give concrete examples of those corporate abuses?
I just got done walking the picket line a few weeks ago, and I can say that the CWA (Communications Workers of America) cares deeply about its members. Over the years they have won some major battles for us. Whenever a union member has a grievance, the Union files a complain with management and 9 times out of 10 the management backs off. The Union has taken Bell Atlantic & AT&T to court on several grievances and in every case that I know of the company was found guilty of breaking previously agreed-upon contract laws. What does that say about what kind of stunts the company would try to get away with if there was no union? With union dues at less than 1% of my daily pay, this union is working just fine.
The focal point of our strike was preventing the company from moving our jobs to Dustbowl, Texas or wherever there are no unions and therefore they can hire tech school graduates at $12 an hour to do our jobs (90% of what I do can be done from a workstation anywhere in the country). Pay increases weren’t even much of an issue- the company pretty much agreed to those on day 1 of the strike. Forced overtime & covert employee monitoring were other big issues.
The company I used to work for (Circuit City Service) had no union and that place was a death labor camp if ever there was one. Every few years there was some kind of cut in commission wages, which we were supposed to make up for by boosting our productivity.
There is already a thread in Great Debates on Unions here, and a thread in the pit here, where I was pleased to see a majority of people come out in support of unions.
You just reminded me- another sticking point for us was that we wanted Verizon Wireless partners (formerly Bell Atlantic Mobil) to be able to go union if a majority of workers voted in favor (up 'till now they didn’t even have the option). They currently get paid a little more than half of what Verizon’s union techs do, even though their jobs are pretty similar to ours. In this repect I would say that our non-union colleagues were being screwed and getting nothing to show for it.
Opus, I am glad it works for you. As I said, theory is one thing and practice is often very different. I am sure in some cases unions can and do serve a good purpose, not only for workers but also for management. When things go smoothly management would find it simpler to deal with a union than with many individuals. Having said that, I believe that, in practice, many unions do more harm than good. So, it is a matter of analyzing each one individually rather than making a general statement. I do believe many unions do more harm than good, both to its own members and to society at large.
Ok- I had never shopped at a Publix until I moved to Atlanta. I don’t dislike Publix, but their prices on some items seem a little high, and the quality of meat seems to be far better at Kroger or Harris Teeter. Again, the selection at Publix seems very limited-if I am looking for something specific, like sun-dried tomatoes in oil, I’ll go to Kroger-I know they have it, while if I go to Publix, I will most likely have to go to another store.
Unions- I don’t know. The company I work for has is strictly non-union. It has worked very well. Like sailor, I see where unions have done far more harm in some cases. Something to think about…
Off to Great Debates.
Another thing that many union members have complained about is that they are forced to pay dues to a union that uses that money to support political candidates those members disapprove of. Now that does look unfair to me. If any form of political contribution should be outlawed, this is it.
How can unions work for you if you are forced to pay them? It seems to me that the only thing they would do then is force you to pay them more.
I’ve always been under the assumption that the main reason for union dues is to pay workers in the event of a strike. Donations to PACs is a secondary consideration. Am I wrong in this thinking?
We started shopping at a Publix here in Lee County, Florida about a year ago, and now we always shop there. The staff is very friendly, the store is always clean, their selection is good, and the deli sandwiches are tasty! 
While we don’t really look at prices much, we haven’t seen anything overly expensive or outstandingly cheap. Publix was also ranked 3rd or 4th supermarket chain in the nation recently in Consumer Reports, and was 1st or 2nd in the region (the other supermarkets being unavailable in the southeast).
A study of the history of unions vs. business shows that, on balance, unions have been benificial to American Lobor.
Non-union employees have benefitted from gains made by union workers because business has to compete for help, and because unions have been instrumental in getting labor law enacted.
Union blue collar workers are generally better trained than non-union workers. In states where licensing of trade workers is required this may not be the case. California has just recently began requiring such licensing, at least for electricians, and most of the electricians (union and non-union) I know think that it’s a good thing .
Peace,
mangeorge
I don’t like Unions, even though I acknowledge the need for them, because almost without fail, they become corrupt.
I’ve talked with ex-union executives and they told me how the Union bosses spent more money on themselves, their mistresses, favored friends and families than on the workers. They explained away gambling trips to Las Vegas as ‘business’, hired useless friends in for key positions, skimmed money whenever they could and spent money lavishly on expensive dinners, night clubs, limos, and themselves. That was why he was an ex-executive. He couldn’t tolerate the accepted level of corruption nor the fact that there were always scores of fanatical union members quite willing to break heads and burn up houses to defend the very union which was screwing them over.
One company I worked for had to hire in more people than they needed because they went union, which meant that the dock workers, if over loaded, could leave some of the goods on the dock. Needless to say, suddenly everyone was ‘overloaded’ and working slower than ever and making $14 an hour. Plus, order them to get their butts moving and they filed a grievance report against you.
One job I had required me to run valuable papers from business to business at times and one business I delivered to was Union. The guys were always glad to see me, always friendly and seemed like such a good bunch. Then, they went on strike. When I showed up, they were picketing the place and gone were the friendly people I knew! They did not want to let me pass, they called me names, tried to block my car, and eventually I had to call the nonunion boss to come out and get the stuff.
After the strike was all over, they were back to being a great bunch of guys but as far as I was concerned, they could all kiss my a** for the way they treated me. Unions breed fanatics. (Look at the auto industry. $20 an hour for using a power wrench to tighten 4 bolts on a car in an air conditioned environment.)
A union came into a business near mine, a big one, and it was just like out of the 20’s. They circulated papers singling out the most dislike boss and accusing him of the most outrageous things and a small core group of newly joined members working there went about threatening other members if they did not join, accused the company of abuses that the employees did not recall ever happening and leaned on their rights to recruit each time the management tried to stop them. The union got in.
Within a year, with the pay raises, the increased benefits, increased (required) labor force, increased perks, the company started laying off people because it could not afford all of the stuff. The Union protested, filed suits and raised all sorts of hell. The company closed and 1000 people were out of work – and the Union organizers were the first ones out of town.
However, Unions are needed to prevent employer abuse and I’ve known employers who would cheerfully pay you $2 and hour and work you 10 hours a day with no over time if they could get away with it and assure you just how lucky you were to have the job. Not to mention the employers who would have no problem shoving workers into hazardous jobs without protective gear or training because they might have to spend money on it.
Get rid of the inevitable top corruption and/or organized crime involvement and Unions would be more accepted.
As it stands, the threat of a Union in some areas is enough to keep employers on their toes. It seems that here in the States, businesses have forgotten the results of an efficiency expert who did some studies years ago. Happy employees are productive ones. Happy employees steal less, are willing to go the extra mile, take less time off and enhance the public image of the company.
Too many businesses prefer to treat the employees like crap, keep them pissed off, threaten them with the loss of their job each time they turn around and demand too much from them for too little pay.
In Europe in countries and times when the unions were very powerful, they drove the economy into the gutter. The UK in the 70s is a good example. And Italy is also a good example of a country where it seems they have more people on strike than at work at any given moment.
The unions may sometimes be good for their members but generally end up corrupt and being a burden on society as a whole. I mean the Cosa Nostra may be good for its members too but not for the rest of us. The teachers union my be good for teachers but not for the rest of society.
I often wonder what we would be paying for new cars if the Auto workers union was not so powerful? I recall them raising a huge fuss some years back and shortly after, the price of cars started going up. Now, we all know that car makers are not going to reduce their profit margin any, so the cost of those great benefit packages and raises were tagged onto the price of the cars.
Not all that long after, some of the car makers started closing down plants and reopening them in Mexico or other countries where people work for like $5 an hour instead of $14 to $20 and there are no unions.
In 1970 - 71, the Ford Maverick cost $1,999.99 right off of the lot.
It was the beginning, one might say, of economy cuts after the AWUA (?) bullied through massive raises and benefit packages. The Maverick was a medium sized compact, without even a glove compartment, low on luxuries but it still had steel bumpers and an A frame or chassis that the body was securely mounted on. It was a good little car.
Today, the $1,999.99 purchase price will probably buy you a set of seats for a subcompact.
I don’t think inflation alone equals the nearly 400% increase in price for a car today of similar quality.
I’m all for Unions helping people out, but over the years they have done a tremendous amount of harm along with the good. By the 1970s, businesses had begun to farm out the Made in America label overseas to save costs. It was starting to get too expensive to manufacture some goods in the States under Union demands.
I was reading about the current major tire recall and noticed that the majority of them seemed to have been made when alternate labor was brought in because the local Union was on strike. It was hinted that the tire defects might have been caused by angry Union workers – a tactic Unions have stooped to before. Shortly after, this observation was replaced by others, directing the focus away from the Union - by news people who are also mainly Union members.
If you really want to find a union mess, get into the film industry. Unless you join one of their Unions, you can’t even get a job unplugging extension cords!
FarTreker:
Yeah, because as they have demonstrated time and again, car manufacturers are solidly on the side of the poor schlub who purchases their product. Why, just look at the milk of human kindness that flowed forth from Ford, when they were first made aware of the recent tire issue. Oh, wait! They didn’t do a damned thing. Not until things got really ugly, anyway. Also, let’s not forget the Pinto. Auto companies exist to make money, and if the UAW wasn’t a force to be reckoned with, I guarantee you that your new Chrysler Landmass wouldn’t come any cheaper.
Right. In 1970-71. As recently as '74-76, I remember brand new Toyotas selling for as little as $1600. That was a quarter century ago, before things like airbags, side-impact crumple zones, and leather upholstery was only seen on top of the line Lincolns and Caddys. And I knew 4 people who owned Mavericks, all of whom cursed the day that they had bought them.
Okay, this is a new one by me. Where did you read this? I, too, heard that the bad batches were done by non-union workers, but not that the union workers might be responsible for the defects.
Waste
That unions end up being mafias is so common… They try to paint the corporations as greedy and themselves as protaecting the workers but they are really protecting the union, not the workers. And the workers are taken in for the ride. When there is a strike, often the strikers get unruly and do illegal things to damage the company (how dumb can you be). In the recent Verizon strike some workers went around with big wire cutters cutting wires. Unfortunately one made a mistake and cut into some power cables instead and was electrocuted. The consumer pays for all this destruction.
The teamsters union launched a strike at UPS not for anything to do with UPS but as a political measure. The UPS workers lost a lot in this strike and the union gained some power.
And what about the teachers union? Has anything so harmful and corrupt ever existed?