Punctuation rules have changed?

Factual Questions
1

I’m giving a presentation about writing Monday night to a group of administrative assistant types. When I asked the person who invited me to speak what kinds of things I should talk abbout, she mentioned punctuation rules that have changed, i.e., older people were taught different rules than the younger folks.

I can think of plenty of grammar and usage examples, but no punctuation rules. The only thing I could think of was the rule about putting two spaces after the punctuation mark at the end of a sentence — and I don’t even know if that indeed has changed. (I don’t do it, because of my years of removing the extra space from copy to be typeset.)

So, is the two-space rule still in effect? And are there other punctuation rules that have changed? Cites would be extremely helpful in this case.

2

My teachers have never told me to put two spaces after the end of a sentence, and I’ve never done it. I’m 18, so there’s one example right there.

I’m under the impression that the two-space rule was needed because of the variant letter widths on a typewriter; word processors can handle the gaps between letters and words automatically, so the extra gap is no longer necessary.

3

Let it never be said that 18-year-olds are not smart. Captain, you nailed it.

I learned to type on a manual typewriter 100 years or so ago, and when I started using computers, it took me a long time to break myself of the habit of just hitting the space bar twice at the end of a sentence.

4

That is correct, but some of these things are like cutting the shank off the ham because that’s what grandma did. They persist, but no one knows the reason why they were done in the first place.

Good to know the two-space rule is no longer being taught.

5

It seems that the placement of end quotes has been changed, for the better. When I was in school we were taught that you always place end quotes after other punctuation, regardless of context (I think question and exclamation marks were the only exceptions).

6

Two spaces after a sentence. This was a function of monospaced fonts (e.g., Courier) on typewriters, and never was a rule for typesetting. Since most people use proportional fonts (e.g., Times Roman), then you don’t need two spaces. However, if you do use a monospaced font, then you use two spaces.

I haven’t noticed any change. The rule (for US usage*) is simple: commas and periods go within the quotes; question marks and exclamation points are placed depending on usage. For instance:

He asked, “We’re going out?”
Did he say, “We’re going out”?

Other punctuation marks aren’t usually an issue, but in the odd case where you need them, they would go within quotes.

  • In the UK, it’s different.
7

At certain times, in the past, they put a lot more commas, in every sentence.

8

Just pound the use of apostrophes and contractions into their pointy little heads :smiley:

9

Following through on Quiddity’s post about apostrophes, here is a practice that seems to be evolving.

When I was a kid, the rule was that nouns ending in the letters s and x were made possessive with the addition of just an apostrophe (for example: James’ hat). More and more I’m seeing text that goes the full apostrophe+s route (as in, James’s hat).

10

I habitually write “James’ widgets”–spellcheck always moans and groans and people look at me kinda funny for doing it.

11

I was self-taught to type on an old, Royal typewriter (I miss that machine), hence I never got into the habit of following the end of a sentence with two spaces. Thinking back to all the typing I did, I can’t imagine why I’d ever want to follow a sentence with two spaces. There’s not really much readability improvement unless you’re constantly typing sentences with lots of periods in them for some reason. What was the practice in the UK where periods aren’t used (for example, Mr Jones instead of Mr. Jones)?

I follow the quote rules, but there are a lot of cases for putting the period after the quote, especially in some types of technical writing where you definitely don’t want the period to be included in the quote. For example, on the shell prompt you should type “rm -R /.” You don’t want that period to be typed.

The use of the apostrophe for s and x possessives was similarly taught to me, but with the understanding that it’s still pronounced as if the additional s were there: James’s books. For the sake of consistency, I’d prefer to use the 's is all applicable cases, but I still follow the rules I learnt.

One thing that I’ve still not gotten my mind about is the use of apostrophes in forming the plural of acronyms. Seeing “please order more LEDs” just doesn’t look right, so I’m prone to writing “please order more LED’s.” That still disturbs me though, and it’s akin to “well, it’s color is orange” in my book of peeves.

12

There are oodles of rules, some commonly accepted and others applicable only regionally or in accord with disciplinary usage. Here are a few:

Ending a sentence or clause with a quotation: The quotation marks come beforethe closing punctuation in the U.K.; they follow a period or comma in the U.S. [and I believe Canada]. If the concluding mark is a ? or !, its placement (West of the Atlantic) depends on whether the complete sentence or the quotation is a question or exclamation. For example, Did he say, “I will go”? but He said, “Will you go?” or He shouted, “I never did!” but How can you say “Never again”! In the first and third examples, the quoted matter is what calls for the ? or !; in the second and fourth, the full sentence does. (For obvious reasons, I omitted quotation marks around the complete examples.)

Single and double quotation marks: Always alternate. In Britain, the “top-domain” marks are single; in America, double, with the interior quote opposite, and a third level quote opposite that and back to the same as the top-domain use. U.S.: “Harry said, ‘Not me!’” U.K.: ‘Harry said, “Not me!”’ (And notice the placement of the exclamation point, per the previous paragraph.) U.S.: “Joe said, ‘Harry said, “Not me!”’” U.K: ‘Joe said, “Harry said, ‘Not me!’”’

Serial comma (“bacon, lettuce[,] and tomato”): Still in hot debate, but with the following consensus evolving: If writing for an editor or a teacher, follow his/her style rules. If writing for a publication, follow its preferred style manual. Otherwise, use one style consistently, and prefer usage of the serial comma for the sake of its occasional need for clarity’s sake. In general, eschew it in journalism; use it otherwise.

Phrases in apposition: Set off by commas unless extremely short and required for clarity, when they are optional: “Richard Burton, who wrote The Anatomy of Melancholy in the 1600s…” but “Richard Burton[,] the actor[,] …” In the latter use, you’re distinguishing by the short appositive that you mean the actor, not the Jacobean writer or the Victorian explorer.

Commas between subject and predicate: Classically used, following the example of German, in the 1700s; almost never used today unless needed for clarity. “The government of the United States of America[,] shall consist of a Congress, an Executive, and a Judiciary.” If Alexander Hamilton had written that, he would have included a comma; any editor or proofreader today would delete it from a contemporary essay. However: “The rule on what the appropriate use of a comma is, is dependent on circumstances.” Which is self-defining: one needs the comma separating the two uses of “is” to avoid inducing double-takes in the reader.

Apostrophe-S in Possessives: Plurals in -s (and in a few borrowed words in -x) take a lone apostrophe, with no -s following it. Singulars nearly always take -‘s with a few (often ignored) exceptions: Classic names ending in -s (and -x) traditionally take a lone apostrophe (Achilles’, Astyanax’); words ending in -ses, -sus, -sis, etc. with a /siz/ or /ziz/ sound likewise (“In Jesus’ name we pray” “Mitosis’ telophase differs from meiosis’”). The rule here appears to be whether the possessive adds an /iz/ syllable to the pronounced word or not.

There is of course much more: semicolons, avoiding comma splices, etc.

13

Oh, and one more, relatively important one: Traditionally, a letter, number, or symbol used to reference itself was pluralized with “-'s” and this has become almost obsolete now, except in those rare cases where addition of a bare “-s” would cause confusion … in which case be consistent. Old usage: “Mind your P’s and Q’s” Modern: “Mind your Ps and Qs.” “He went through his porn collection grading the girls as 8s, 9s or 10s.” But “A’s and B’s” to avoid confusion with the word “As” (and to maintain consistency in the parallel B’s).

14

Wow- I’m 20, so I learned to type on a keyboard. And I always thought that you put two spaces in between sentences. It never would have occurred to me to do otherwise.

15

Yeah, I’m 21 and I always use 2 spaces. Even on the internet, where I know that the browser will squish 2 consecutive spaces into 1.

16

Ditto.

Oh, and as far as serial commas go, you ALWAYS use them, unless you’re some kind of unwashed heathen. :smiley:

17

It can get worse than all that. I do volunteer work with the Lions Club. I spent a week trying to explain to an elderly lady who just got a computer that when the text gets to the edge of the window you do not have to hit “Carriage Return” to keep typing. She just could not grasp the concept of text wrapping. She is a sweet lady and I really respect her, but at one point I was ready to commit suicide. Then it hit me, “Who cares”? Anyone she is writing to will be thrilled to get a letter at all, even if the sentences are a bit broken up. I quit trying to get her to stop that and focused on teaching her to print envelopes. She does not have a net connection, and prints and sends everything snail-mail. She is 80+ . Gutsy lady, she is trying. She went from horse and buggy to man on the moon to computers. Wow, what a ride.

18

Except that, unless you’re writing this on a typewriter, it’s incorrect.

One space between sentences.

One space between sentences

(I’ve been on a crusade about this for years. And I’m a person who originally learned to type on an IBM Selectric typewriter, where you did need two spaces between sentences.)

19

Acronyms.
The olden days: “I like that new T.V. show, The man from U.N.C.L.E”; “The U.S. is probably the most important member of N.A.T.O.”

Now: “I hear they’re finally releasing season one of The Man from UNCLE on DVD!”; the GOP says NATO should STFU about the US and its search for WMDs"

20

Please be careful with such statements. There is almost nothing that is per se “incorrect” in the way of usage rules, punctuation rules, or grammar rules in English. There are some practices that tend to be more common. Other times, practices are without much concensus.

I always put two spaces after a period, having learned to do so so long ago that I simply would find it difficult to retrain myself not to. Given that the visual difference is almost non-existent, I don’t see why anyone would care. :slight_smile: