The recent Sons of Guns thread brings this question to mind. I’ve read that civilians can only purchase full auto weapons if they were manufactured before a certain date (1986 ?). Yet, I’m pretty certain that watching the show, they were manufacturing full auto weapons for sale. So, I’m confused.
Civilians can only buy if the weapon was registered before 1986. Unless one has a Class III FFL (Federal Firearms License). Those being made must be for military, law enforcement, or export.
To be legally transferable among private citizens, receivers must have been registered before the registry closure in 1986. Guns may be assembled or rebuilt on registered receivers. In the months leading up to the closure, several companies were known to have worked overtime producing as many registerable receivers as possible. New i.e. never fired guns are still being assembled from these stockpiles. This company is an example of such. I have never watched the show, but they may have been building/rebuilding using legal receivers or they may have been building for entities that can legally possess post-86 full auto.
I recall seeing them machining upper receivers from blocks of metal on the show.
UncleBill, are you saying that if I had a Class III FFL, as a civilian, I could purchase a new full auto? Wouldn’t I need the same for a pre-86 transferable FA or is there more to a C III FFL than just a background check and paying the Federal transfer tax?
You may possess dealer samples of new full auto weapons if you have the correct licensing. You must also actually be a dealer. BATFE takes a very dim view of folks attempting to game the system by getting dealer licensing simply to possess new weapons.
Just noticed this. If you mean upper receivers for the M-16 family of weapons, they are unrestricted. Anybody can buy one, even mail order. It is the lower receiver that is serial numbered and is the part that BATFE cares about.
If they are making stuff to fit on M-16 receivers, there are a fair few of them in civilian hands and many more in the possession of LE.
I have wondered about that. How does the BATFE determine how successful a dealer you were? Suppose you were a well off or wealthy individual who actually could handle the hassle of doing this. Say you own “Joe’s Oil company” and clear 1 million/year, or “Joe’s Golf course” and make a few hundred k.
So you open up “Joe’s automatic weapon shop” and try to sell to your local police or military. No one is interested. Having a dealership that has not made any sales probably looks bad, so you discount the weapon to below your cost and sell 1 AR a year or something to the local cops.
Does this qualify? If it doesn’t, I wonder what does.
At a minimum, I’d guess that they will look for the same evidence they look for with non-NFA dealers. An actual place of business, meeting local requirements for zoning, sales tax collection, etc. Beginning back when Clinton was president, the BATFE became a lot more anal about dealer licenses being something for actual dealers. The curio and relics license is the only one that they’re good with Joe Schmoe having for his own convenience.
Yeah, but you could meet all those requirements and run “Joe’s every gun emporium” where you have a couple copies of every modern automatic weapon released after 1986. (one copy is so it can be, uh, ‘demoed’ on the range and the other is to look showroom new in that out of the way shop in the hole in the wall shopping center that no one ever visits)
You could, but BATFE’s regulations mean what BATFE says they mean. If they say you are trying to game the system and yank your license, then what? If they say you are trying to game the system, yank your license AND prosecute you, then what? People who want to play with NFA toys would all be getting NFA dealer licenses if it was that easy to play BATFE.
I see what you’re saying. They have so much power the rules mean whatever they want them to mean as they apply to you specifically.
On several Mythbuster episodes, the gang has headed to a secret location in Nevada? Arizona? where they had the opportunity to fire miniguns – six-barreled full-auto (and then some) weapons, which appeared to be new. I doubt these could have been made from re-manufactured receivers, as the design of a minigun is so different from a conventional full-auto weapon. Any ideas how this was done legally?
They’re at the Dillon Aero company, who manufactures them for the military.
The requirement is actually quite simple, and depending on your connections, is easy to meet. In addition to having the Federal Firearms License and Special Occupational Tax (Your Class III Dealer License), one must have a Letter of Intent (also called a Demo Letter) from a law enforcement agency specifically requesting a demonstration of the specific machinegun being transfered to the dealer as a Dealer Sample.
If someone wants to get a dealer license simply to purchase and possess new machineguns, he needs to get that letter of intent as well. This doesn’t seem to be a problem for many people. I have personally sold 2 brand new HK21Es to a pediatrician in Michigan. These are belt-fed machineguns. His Letter of Intent read like a wish list of any and every gun his thought he might want to buy, ever. It was several pages long. The agency obviously would have no need or ever have any desire to purchase any of the weapons in that letter. However, it was signed by the Chief of Police, so its legit. Maybe the Chief is a friend of his. Maybe he gives discount check ups to all the cops’ kids. Who knows. But wish list style Letters of Intent are not uncommon in the industry.
Once the “dealer” purchases the machinegun, he is able to own and possess it only for as long as he keeps his license. Once he loses the license, he has to get rid of all the machineguns. The only exception to this are Dealer Pre-Samples.
The guys at Red Jacket Firearms are licensed manufacturers (Class II) of firearms. They don’t need the Demo Letter to make anything. They can make whatever they want. However, they can only sell newly constructed machineguns to law enforcement agencies or other Class III dealers who have a demo letter in hand.
As stated above, there are a lot of pre1986 machinegun parts, like auto sears, that are individually registered as machineguns. These parts can be used to build brand new machineguns that are transferable to private citizens.
The wait for a private citizen to get his machinegun, from the day he purchases it and fills out the paperwork to the day that ATF allows him to pick it up from the dealer is about 6-8 months.
I’d thought they were at some military testing facility, like they did with the sonic boom vs. glass episode. The military has all kinds of fancy stuff barred to civilians, and a standard process for letting media producers see them in use.
I knew a guy who owned a steel target fabrication business. He also had a Class II manufacturer’s license. He built a minigun. He had a really nice setup in the back of his truck. He had a seat and a mount for the minigun that was on a fabricated rail in the bed. The whole thing would slide out and swivel on that track, so that one could sit off the back of the truck and fire. One side of the bed was a 5,000 belt box and the other side was a row of car batteries. It’s electrical, afterall.
He ended up selling it to another recreational shooter (who had the FFL, SOT, and demo letter required). The guy who bought it even owned a huge tracked vehicle. Not sure what it was, but it was huge; much bigger than an M113. It looked like an M88, but without the boom cranes. He mounted the minigun on his tracked vehicle and would take this out to various machinegun shooting events and exhibitions. I am not sure what that guy actually did for a living.
So that tracked vehicle with a mounted machine gun is the product your business is offering. You take it to exhibitions in the hope of drumming up business. Alas, the military doesn’t want to buy it. What a shame, what a shame, but it sure looks cool.
Was this guy Walter White?
Meh. I’ve had an FFL since 1984 at a house I own that is not my home. It is not a business store front. I’ve been inspected there by the BATF and never had a problem with my kitchen table business being in a residential house and neighborhood. Neither has the local municipality.
There were a couple of years that I sold mostly parts and less than 5 guns but acquired a bunch for my own collection. Never had a problem with them over it.
It is true that during the Clinton years inspections increased and agents got pissy over every little thing. But that diminished when W got in and I haven’t noticed a re-increase in it since he’s been gone.
I was wondering about that. I recently read a pro-gun novel originally published in 1996 Unintended Consequences by John Ross. It portrays what was then called the ATF as pursuing an unwritten agenda to put all independent class 2 and class 3 manufacturers and dealers out of business, finding or fabricating any excuse to bring charges and seize inventories, running entrapment ploys, etc… The novel contends that the fed’s attitude towards possession and transfer of NFA items was that they’re prima facie illegal until proven otherwise- a reversal of the usual principle of innocent until proven guilty. Was it really that bad, and if so has that changed?