Many of the same people that scream “Gay marriage has made society worse” would scream “Outlawing abortion has made society better.” In the meantime, women would die from more illegal abortions, the foster care & welfare systems would be increased with unwanted children, adoptions would rise sharply as more of the “right” (white babies) children become available, then drop just as sharply as fewer people are available to adopt.
Let me guess – if you ever talk with someone for abstinence education you list off all these positive facts and figures regarding sexual education like declining teenage pregnancy, maybe something about teenage STDs, and all these real world implications. Basically, you’re saying that abstinence education just doesn’t work.
If you do, you’re kinda missing the point of their position. Whoosh. Ditto the brouhaha over the HPV vaccines.
AFAIK though, RU486 isn’t a day-after pill. It’s actually an abortion pill.
Day-after pills are meant to be taken after sex and before you get pregnant. They block the release of an egg. (It’s there for people who normally would use a condom but it breaks or falls off.)
On the other hand, RU486 flushes out a fertilized egg after the pregnancy test comes back positive. I can’t see anyway that it would remain legal (is it legal now? it isn’t in Canada) if abortion were outlawed.
Pretty much what Airman said (and I’ll man those same barricades if it ever comes to it…but will ask that, if McCain DOES get elected and we go through 8 years and are STILL exactly where we are now that we give this a rest. I actually asked the same thing when BUSH got elected…yet, still hearing the same cries of WOLF! we heard then)
Well, you skipped over a couple of steps. Even if Roe WAS overturned (:dubious:), all this would do is put it back in the states hands (while probably destroying the Republican party with most of the US center). State laws would then need to be enacted somehow. I suppose if a state still has laws making abortion illegal on the books it might be able to simply put them back in force…in theory. But for all the other states? Most of them would simply pass legislation making abortion legal is my guess.
Overturning Roe, contrary to the propaganda scare on it, wouldn’t make abortion illegal in the US by fiat. It would simply put the question up on the states level. Not exactly the end of the world, even if some states were to do the wrong thing and make it illegal (:dubious:…though I can see making SOME types of abortion illegal in SOME states I have serious doubts that even the most conservative red state would make all abortion illegal).
-XT
I think you’re unclear on what the OP is talking about. We are not talking about abortion being outlawed on a national level. Overturning Roe v. Wade doesn’t mean no one in the US can ever get an abortion. It means that individual states are now free to outlaw the procedure if their citizens so desire. Most states would choose to keep the procedure, and most likely RU486 as well. You would not be able to buy RU486 in, say, Alabama, but you would be able to buy it in California. And with the internet, what’s for sale in one state is for sale in every state, so the ban on RU486 would be, at best, extremely difficult to enforce.
Exactly (Miller). The best analogy to this currently is with alcohol (or maybe guns). There are some states that limit (or even ban) the sales of alcohol…or, like in DC owning a gun. So…some states would follow this model for abortion (maybe make certain kinds illegal, maybe put in other measures like requiring counseling or such), while others went in other directions. Even if the state you lived in outlawed it, effectively all you’d need to do is travel to another state to get it done if you so desired.
-XT
If the Pubbies get Roe overturned they can still rally the religious right to actually fight to make abortion illegal on the national level and the moderates who think Roe was a bad decision even if they want it only settled by the legislative branch to rally for the heat coming from the Dems side to get abortion enshrined in the Constitution. The abortion debate wont go away with another decision from SCOTUS. I can’t see it ever being settled no matter what the law says.
Why ? If McCain fails to go along with the anti-abortionists, do you think they’d just vanish ? Look at the neocons; President after President told them “No”; they kept trying until one said “Yes”.
If you can afford it in terms of time and money. It’s not that easy for a poor woman working two jobs ( for example ) to travel to the next state - or even the state after that. And quite likely more than once, thanks to the “waiting periods” many states have passed thanks to the conservatives. But then, stomping on the poor is part of all this.
And that’s assuming that she could come home without being arrested. After all, she’s guilty of “murder”.
Would you mind providing more details as to why you think that the abortion issue is the only issue the Republican party has a leg to stand on? Both major parties, and most of the minor ones as well, have a bunch of issues that define them, and I don’t see one less issue destroying any party. At least the Democrats or Republicans.
Also, the parties evolve as time goes on. I was proud of the Republicans who swept into congress in '94 and had the Contract with America. After 2 or 3 tries, they got Clinton to sign welfare reform. They also balanced the budget, although that didn’t last. The republican party since bush took office has made me sick. Just a bunch of yes men to an immoral, power hungry tyrant, who thinks he’s free to do whatever he wants. And right now, the Republicans in Washington seem to have national security as their biggest issue, not abortion.
So, tying that rant back into my question for you, since the parties, and what’s most important to them changes as time changes, why would the loss of a single issue destroy the Republican party?
Because by then (presumably), it should be obvious to even the most loony lefty type that this whole friggin issue is a red herring…the Republicans have no more intention of ever doing anything about this than the Dems have of taking the country full socialist. We’ll have had 16 years by then of a Republican in the WH…6 of those with Bush the Magnificent along with a Republican controlled house and senate. And STILL nothing will have been done.
Oh, I know, I know…like the eminent invasion of Iran by the US, this is a meme that just isn’t going to die. It was silly of me to try and set some kind of limit on the madness.
Well, those are certainly issues (if it ever happened). However, this is the absolute worst case scenario with the lowest probability of happening. Granted, it would be a pain in the ass…sort of like the folks who have to go out of state to get alcohol or something along those lines.
I’ll refrain from the obvious reply to this, and instead ask you how this would work in the real world. How would she be arrested (for ‘murder’ or anything else)? It would be like saying if I went to a non-dry state and had a drink, or went to a state where guns were legal and fired one, that my home state could arrest me for doing these things. I’m not seeing how this could be plausible, but IANAL so maybe you could work that part out for me.
-XT
Do you think the Republicans have already passed up the opportunity to swing the SCOTUS to the more conservative side? I don’t see how you can argue that they haven’t done it and therefore won’t do it if you can’t show where they’ve had opportunities and didn’t take them.
SC justices don’t get replaced unless they retire or die (I’m sure impeachment is possible, but I don’t remember ever hearing it done). It’s not as if presidents can wave their hands and put their own justices in. They have to get “lucky” enough to have openings on the court. The next president will, and if it’s McCain he will be able to swing the court to full-fledged conservatism.
Granted, justices aren’t monkeys on a leash. They definitely have minds of their own and aren’t under the control of the president, but I don’t consider that a very “safe” bet at all.
In any case, my OP set up certain things as givens. I don’t know that McCain will win. I don’t know that Stevens will step down. I don’t know exactly what will happen. But if these things happen, then what?
It’s abortion. Abortion is the third rail of politics.
I am reminded of what LBJ said when he signed the Civil Rights Act of 1964: “We have just lost the South for a generation” (paraphrased). This is every bit as contentious as that was. The Republican base, if they manage to get what they say they want, will be the only ones left.
Such warmth and compassion. Thanks for making my point about how contempt for the poor is a major part of this movement. And it’s not “the absolute worst case scenario with the lowest probability of happening”; it’s right here, right now, and has been for years. Women DO need to travel great distances in many places to get abortions, often multiple times, and often they can’t do so. And all the while, people like you sneer at them, and blame them for having so many children they can’t support. The children you force on them.
By the police, of course.
Neither of which is “murder”. And who is she going to appeal to ? The same Supreme Court that just said she can be reduce to a brood mare ?
I have to say, the Straight Dope Message Board has had an effect on me on this issue.
Before: “The so-called right-to-life movement is entirely composed of people who want to curtai women’s sexuality; and while partly that is geared toward denying women sexual freedom for the sake of doing so, it also has to do with controlling male sexuality as well (if you can only have whores or negotiate with “proper” women who can’t afford to have sex until they are in a secure situation where they could afford to get pregnant with no possibility of abortion, you may sow some so-called “wild oats” but mostly will find it emotionally unfulfilling and will buckle under and kowtow and do as the older men wish you to do to secure an income with which you become “eligible” and mateworthy). It’s all totally cynical and has diddly squat to do with fetuses, and the next target on their list will be birth control”
After: “OK, some people do in fact care about fetuses, and it matters to them. To them it is a carnage, a baby-killing holocaust. Their lleaders may be as described above, but their concern is real (exploited though it may be) and if they care that much, with that much intensity, even if I do not share their attitude, I have to respect it. I want people to be able to be sexually active without pregnancy looming as a ‘punishment’ consequence. If the average Profile folks, such as I encounter them on this board, are for real, and I think they are even if their leadership folk are NOT, then maybe we can reach common ground on reducing abortion rates by better birth control technologies and better birth control education, and perhaps challenges to sex-role scripts that set up young girls to be ashamed of preparing for sex by doing things to avoid pregnancy. Me, I would be okay if fetuses continued to get aborted on an as-desired / no questioned asked basis up to the moment of birth, but the fervor of their concern makes me willing to wall that off, if unintentional pregnancy can be made less of a factor for the sexually active”
I don’t suppose it’s necessarily a huge sea-change from the perspective of someone like Randall Terry, but to me it’s a distinctive change in attitude.
Meanwhile, umm, to those of you who are indeed pro-life and who recognize yourself descibed externally, to some extent, in my description “after” above: your movement leaders are shitheads. Seriously. They are not compassionate folk concerned with the fetus. Do NOT trust me on this, do your OWN freaking research. Start your own alternative pro-life movement if need be. But you have been had. All the nasty crappy offensive things we pro-choice folks have said about YOU are pretty close to being universally true about your movement leadership. Do not take my word for it, go LOOK AT THEM, do your research.
I don’t know- someone one the Dope put forth the following argument some years back, and it had a profound influence on how I think about abortion.*
For someone who is pro-life, an abortion is a murder, plain and simple. This fetus and the child it will potentially become are equally alive and have an equal right to life. Exceptions for rape and incest will not only allow murder, they will allow murder *because the victim is the product of rape. * The logical extension here is that the child who is a product of rape is of intrinsically lesser value than the child conceived in love, and that is why an abortion is legal under those circumstances. And once this becomes the oft-repeated justification in churches across the country, you won’t be able to have an abortion law with exceptions.
*I’ve got a very conflicted stance here- I oppose abortion personally because I can’t quite reconcile the difference between a fetus and a baby emotionally in my own heart. I support the right to have a legal abortion, because I don’t want the government making this choice for me. I oppose Roe v. Wade because I believe this not a matter for the federal government according to the Constitution. I would agree with the limitations set forth in Roe v. Wade if they were set forth by state governments. And if you’re going to have laws against abortion, I oppose exceptions for rape and incest, because the least we can do is be consistent here, and allowing exceptions for rape and incest is going to lead to some nasty court cases where a scared teenage girl accuses a boy of raping her so that she can get an abortion.
:rolleyes: Read. For. Comprehension.
I said nothing like what your are strawmaning me into here. ''People like" me “sneer at them”?? I was born poor. I’ve probably known more people who have had abortions than you know, sitting all alone in your mama’s house on the internet. Blame them for having children they can’t support?? You are talking about the vast majority of my FAMILY there gringo.
Instead of putting words in my mouth why don’t you try asking me in the future first? Or would that be too much trouble?
Oh, I forgot. This is the Der Trihs alternative Evil America. I should have known better than to ask you for a rational reply to a serious question. Of COURSE the police will simply go around arresting people for going to another state to get an abortion in the future world where RvW is put down and the iron grip of the fascist state takes hold…
etc etc, blah blah blah.
Complete horseshit…but then, it’s you. I should have known better than to try and discuss this subject with you rationally. You are simply incapable of holding an interesting discussion of anything that touches on one of your trigger issues.
-XT
If abortion was made illegal it would go back to the wild west days . States that it was still legal had people from other states going there to get abortions. You had to scrape up money and find a way to get there ,and to to it quickly. It was a problem for many an unsolvable problem.
Wealthy had no problems. They could go on a vacation and come back slimmer. There were classy places available and countries that did not discourage them. It often boils down to money.
Those without resources often got back alley abortions or tried self abortion. It was dangerous and deadly.
You can legislate morality but you can not enforce it. Prohibition is a fine example of how well that works. Local abortion providers were jailed. Young teens were humiliated. There was a culture clash.
Palin and her types are deadly serious. They want to stop abortion. Human collateral damage is irrelevant.
No, I simply don’t trust you.
Why not ? It’s not like they haven’t done worse, or aren’t doing worse right now.
You seldom try to discuss anything rationally; you usually just insult people or their arguments without actually trying to refute them. Or you make unprovable claims about your personal life or experiences.
I’m missing something–are you saying there would be more abortions overall if it became illegal, or more people would turn to surgical ones than RU486 ones than are now? Why would RU486 not be available as a black market alternative that same way illegal medical abortions would?
I took her to be saying that not only would RU486 abortions (medical abortions) go up compared to now, but that the women would also be trying for herbal abortions. Both of these would be instead of surgical abortion.