I signed a lease for my new apartment in April. I just moved into the new place on July 1 – some two weeks ago.
In the Quebec apartment lease, the landlord is required to indicate how much the previous tenants were paying. He stated that they were paying $750.
He set our rent at $810 – a $60 or 8% increase.
We have now discovered that the previous tenants were paying only $700 – not $750!
QUESTIONS
1/ I called the Regie and they were pretty non-plussed by the fact the landlord lied on an official lease document. I thought that would call the entire lease into question, but they told me I have to proceed through the same regular rent-reduction process (which could end in a hearing 6 to 12 months from now). Is there a fine or some other penalty that the landlorn should be forced to pay for lying on the lease document?
2/ Have you experienced this kind of thing before? What is the best way to proceed?
I just find it amazing that you can get an apartment for under $1000. Not sure what laws operate in your part of the woods, but wow, I’d count your blessings.
You may have more problems than you thought. Unless the landlord did some renovations on the apartment, he overcharged you much more on the increase. According to the Régie site :
[QUOTE]
However the Régie du logement is able to estimate averages. So for the rents to be fixed for the period starting after April 1st 2002 but before April 2, 2003, it can be expected, if the method to fix the rent of the Régie is applied, that the rent variation will be of :
[ul]
[li]1.2 % for electricity heated dwellings;[/li]
[li]2.9 % for gas heated dwellings;[/li]
[li]0.2 % for oil heated dwellings;[/li]
[li]1.0 % for non heated dwellings.[/ul][/li][/QUOTE]
Also, if he has left the apartment empty for six months or more, he can charge you whatever he wants.
Wanna live cheap, Fresno, Ca. City of 500K+ people rents start in the $400-$450 range. I am buying just under $500/mo for a 2 bedroom house (30yr mortgage, 4 years down :D).
When I told my friend who lives in New Mexico that I had found a new one-bedroom place in Queens for $1100, he remarked that he was renting a two bedroom house, (that is, a single building on the ground with a yard and such) for $500 a month.
I’ve been trying to find the name and number of a tenant’s rights guru here in Montreal, a lawyer who consults for free on cases just like this. I had to see him once, when I was living in a place infested with cockroaches.
So, yeah, detop’s right – if there’s been someone living there the last six months, that rent increase is illegal.
As for the hijack, matt_mcl and I have an enormous basement apartment, larger than any I’ve ever lived in, and we’re paying less than $500 together.Overtaxed? Don’t mind one bit, as long as I get my health care, my cheap university tuition, protection if I lose my job, and, eventually, a pension
Hamish, the guy’s name is Arnold Bennett. I called his hotline already, but they only do workshops on the weekend.
The apartment was not empty for 6 months. There were people there and, in fact, they are the ones who told me that they were paying less than what the owner thought.
I was told my the Regie that we could also sue the owner for making false claims on the lease! Probably won’t, but it’ll be nice to hang that over his head.
I’m a fair guy, but this owner has really pissed me off now. It’s bad enough he raised the rent $60 (which we accepted because we liked the apt), but now it looks like it was more like a $110 increase! I don’t like liars. And I don’t like being taken advantage of.
Anyway, I’ll proceed as the Regie tells me to, but any advice from Quebec dopers is appreciated.
I don’t know about Quebec, but in Ontario the only real thing you can do is bring it to the housing tribunal and let them deal with it in due course. In the meantime, document EVERYTHING. Ask previous tenants (if possible) for a copy of THEIR lease, and/or a statement from them about what they were paying. Document each and EVERY phonecall or conversation with your landlord (even attempted calls where you get a machine or no answer - especially if he’s notoriously “hard to reach”). If you send him anything, send it by registered post, even if he lives in the same building. Get a paper trail, so that when you get to a hearing, you have as much evidence as possible. What he is doing is illegal, and it is annoying to have to wait 6-12 months, but the upshot is that you can prevent him from doing it again to someone else. If possible, talk to other tenants (especially those who just moved in) about how their rent increases were handled. Try do deal with this directly to the landlord or owner, and be reasonable but don’t be afraid to threaten to bring him before the court - however, if you DO mention doing that, make sure you’re willing to go through with it.
If the lease stated an 8% increase then I think you have a case. If you got proof that the rent was $700 and the lease says 8% over what the former tenent was paying that would mean $756…
Out of curiosity, not a desire to debate anything, what is the argument for limiting the rent based on what was paid by a previous tenant? I can see the argument for limiting rent increases for current tenants.
One word : discrimination. That part of the law came into existence in the 70s, when the immigration patterns in Québec were changing and immigrants came predominantly from the Third World instead of from Europe. Many visible minorities were told the rent was one price and Caucasian tenants were told another (lower) price. We are not especially racists, but we are xenophobic (results of centuries of being taught we were a chosen people). To level the playing field in lodgings, the provincial government introduced this anti-discriminatory aspect of the law (you are also forbidden to discriminate according to your socio-economic status, BTW). It doesn’t work 100 % but it works well enough, until something better comes along.
Oh, k2dave, unlesss the landlord made renovations in the apartment, the maximum increase he can charge is 2.9 % according to the heating unit.
Ok, that’s interesting. Just a quick follow up, what does it mean that you are forbidden to discriminate based upon “socio-economic status”. Surely it isn’t against the law to consider whether the tenant is capable of paying the rent?
Hmm, thanks for the good advice folks. I will document everything, as mnmosyne says.
But do any of my Quebec doper friends know if the landlord can face a fine or penalty for lying on an official lease document? I’d like to know so I can make it clear that it is in his interest to settle this thing and reduce the rent to the original plus a 1% to 3% increase (instead of the 30% increase he gave me).
I tried to find a copy of the rental code (in either French or English) but couldn’t find one. My only suggestion, in addition to contacting Arnie Bennett, would be to try to reach either POPIR of FRAPRU, since they are housing activists groups, they might be able to better assist you.
Based on this document it looks as if setting rent increases is potentially a fairly involved process, and not necessarily limited to a simple increase ceiling over what the last tenant paid. Unless you are savvy to all the Landlord’s expenses and how they factor into the form’s calculation matrix you may get your head handed to you in court.
Let me ask a factual question related to this, and I hope for a truly factual answer (since this could quickly devolve into rants). I see this (rent control?) in Quebec now per the OP, and have always heard about it in New York City, but what’s the justification for rent controls? How/why would a government dictate what rates a private owner can charge for the use of his land?
jdl, I’m not trying to get you to pay more rent, and I agree that you should fight for everything that the law provides you. But, you did seem satisfied with the price originally, so that’s the price the market demands, correct? If everything were overpriced, no one would rent, and then rents would come down, i.e., the market would settle itself. With controls, it seems that the government is even devaluing the property, i.e., it’s not worth as much because a prospective buyer may not offer the going rate due to rent caps.
Am I really missing an obvious point about big city economies, I ask as a suburbinte? Thanks.
I’m a free market kind of guy and I tend to agree that if you own a building, you should be able to charge what you want.
I agree that I agreed to pay the $810 – an 8% increase over the previous fee of $750. But then I discovered that the previous fee wasn’t $750, but $700.
I’m a little p*ssed now. Add that to the fact that I have some electricty and water yellow problems, and I’m more that a little peeved at the landlord.
Why am I going to pursue this, even if I believe in free market capitalism?
