Question about 9-11

Well, for starters, “the people” are not one homogenous lump over here, you know? There are 280 million of us with a wide variety of positions on any given subject.

There is also the question of “media”, and how you define it. If you limit it to TV, yes, the obsession with 9/11 is there, which is why I stopped watching for the most part about 3 months after the attack. I got tired of it. However, radio broadcast a much wider range of views and analysis on the attack, ranging from “Kill them all” to “We richly deserved it”. Our newspapers also tended to be a little more thoughtful and analytical as well (which is not to deny the occassional excess). But abroad our media is represented primarially by TV and I assume those overseas do not get exposed to radio and print from the US to anywhere near the same degree

As for “get over it” - what do you mean by that? Forget it happened in entirely? Not a chance in hell. Get back to normal life? I started doing that on September 12 by going back into downtown Chicago to work in a skyscraper.

Fact is, some people made it very very clear that they consider us an enemy and they have no qualms about killing us. However we got into that position, it would stupid to simply forget about that. It is also a fact that the attacks, in addition to killing 3000+ people, also impacted our economy pretty badly.

(A previous poster said we’re likely to lose a major airline over it. I’d say we’re likely to lose two, and some additional crap imposed on aviation - NOT real security items but politically motivated meddling - is depressing the whole sector. Not to mention the impact on tourism, diverting of resources from one area of government to others causing disruption, and so forth).

So… you propose we “get over it” when our economy is in the toilet, Al Quaeda or some remnant of it is STILL clearly at large in the world blowing things up (and we just know they’d like another go at us), and we’re facing loss of civil liberty in our own country as part of the fall out? Sorry, bud, we’re not “over it” because it’s still causing us problems - get it? If the economy were humming along, we were reasonably sure the Bad Guys were either caught or unable to attack us, and our politicians woke up sane one morning yeah, we’d be ready to “get over it” - but not until then.

Actually, the US has a pretty good track record of “getting over” outrages and becoming allies, if not actual friends, with former enemies. Just to name a few - the UK (we did fight a couple wars against them), USA vs CSA (our civil war, for all it’s bloody viciousness, was only 5 years long and the peace did NOT degenerate into decades of guerilla warfare), and post-WWII both Japan and Germany. So yes, we are, in fact, capable of “getting over” lots of things - when we’re ready. Not when someone else wants to dictate the time.

Well, you did, but you were polite about it and it is a hot button issue. I don’t agree with most of what you posted, but hey, that’s why this is a debate forum, right?

You know, that is a very good question. Here’s my take on it:

The Pentagon is primarially an office building. It’s not a fort, it’s an administrative center that actually employs large numbers of civilians to push paper around. Yes, there are some areas that require clearance to enter, the Secretary of Defense and Joint Chiefs of Staff work there, but although it is an important military structure it really does resemble a corporate headquarters for, say, IBM or Microsoft more than a military base. It’s a place to put lots of paper records, for example. The military ownership and use might lead people to think there are heavily armed marines at every corner, but in reality it’s a lot of people sitting at desks pushing paper and typing on keyboards.

Therefore, although it is a legitimate military target, it was never fortified to the same degree as many other military installations. In part, this is because our capital has not been invaded by any foreign power since 1812 (those wacky Brits, you know?) and for centuries the Atlantic and Pacific oceans, as well as thousands of miles of our own territory, did serve to adequately protect our country. Obviously, times have changed.

As for the “unarmed civilian plane” - well, as pointed out, the Pentagon is about 2 minutes away from a major airport. Clearly, when we set that up, no one was thinking of civilian airplanes as a threat. In retrospect, this seems foolish but hindsight is 20/20. Unlike foresight, which tends to be severely myopic. In fact, the entire US airspace system was designed without thinking of attack by airplane. The only areas heavily watched for “invaders” were the international borders, which have long had special procedures for entering and exiting the country (and which were not as heavily enforced as they should have been). Thus, there was no one watching for an attack originating from within the country. In fact, securing our airspace post-9/11 has been a difficult problem because, as I said, the whole system was put into place without ever considering the idea of a threat from the air. It’s a complicated problem, and would be off topic to address it thoroughly in this thread so I won’t, but basically our defenses didn’t keep up with changing technology. In part, this is because it had been so very long since our mainland was successfully attacked.

As demonstrated, a “unarmed civilian plane” such as a 757 does not, in fact, need to be armed to cause a lot of damage. One phrase I heard after the attacks was “poor man’s cruise missle”.

Again, we’re not a homogenous mass over here. I haven’t been “duped” at all - the only way in which Saddam and bin Laden are related is that they are both enemies of the US. Do I think they were both dangerous? Yes. Do I think either one of them would have attacked us if he thought he could do so? Yes. Do I think they were ever working together? Hell, no. It’s like all during the cold war when the USSR and China were both communist, both are enemy, but they certainly weren’t allies of each other. Actually the USSR and China probably were more friendly towards each other than bin Laden and Hussein - which ain’t saying much.

Does invading Iraq serve the purposes of our current pseudoneo-fascist hawkish administration? You bet. Do I approve, simply because of my citizenship in this country? Hell, no. At this point, I’m far more concerned about what my government plans to do to our civil liberties and ability to move freely than I am about being in a terrorist attack myself. Sure, I could get in the way of a bomb. I could get hit by a bus while crossing the street. What the government does, however, I have to worry about every day.

There was not just one man responsible for the WTC attacks. There were a LOT of people involved, and a number of them died that same day. It’s rather simplistic to say that if Osama bin Laden didn’t exist, or was killed 5 years ago, it never would have happened. The 9/11 attacks were a group effort

In truth, the man might even be dead - we blew things up so thoroughly there were no remains left to identify. Or maybe he’s alive. Using the “might of the American military” to go after one man is rather like using arson to elminate the ants in your kitchen. Clearly, it’s not the ideal tool but I’m not sure we had anything more effective to use at the time (or even now).

It’s a fairly simple equation - if you punch someone in the nose, you’re likely to get hit in return. If you attack a country they will, most likely, retaliate if they are able to do so. The idea apparently held by these scum-puppies that by attacking America we’d somehow roll over and capitulate was entirely mistaken. If the US is attacked, the US goes to war. It’s always been that way, and probably always will be. In fact, the Japanese tried the “if we attack them maybe they’ll realize our might and go away” tactic in 1941 - it didn’t work then, either. In fact, the major difference between 1941 and 2001 is that we took over Afganistan a heck of a lot quicker than we did Japan. If someone launched an attack today from a particular country XYZ it would be a sure bet that within a very short time the US would attack, invade, and own said country XYZ. This is not going to change. If people don’t like it they can easily avoid this situation simply by not attacking our territory.

And how would you have handled things differently? It’s easy to criticize - try solving the problem.

Imagine you’re sitting in the Oval Office on September 12, 2001 - what would YOU have done?

Broomstick,

Sincere thanks for the well-thought out reply. I have no idea what I would have done in GWBs place.

Definately food for thought.

** Grey **

I have no desire to “address” (wrong word again) the replies that have been posted. I simply want some views that don’t come from US TV & print media. That’s all. Thanks anyway.

That is complete nonsense, since Saddam Hussein was one of the first to condemn the WTC attacks right after they happened (!!!)

The rest is US government propaganda, so no “ass-whuppin was in order” …

Except, of course, those airlines were in a pretty bad shape BEFORE 9/11 and are going bellyup despite the fact that truckloads of money have been poured over them, not the least as a consequence of the greed of the management, which in the case of AA busted a deal with employees on salary cuts by filling their pockets as best as they could themselves.

The strange thing is that the US seems to think that is true for everyone BUT them.

What makes you think that was the idea they held?

You are comparing apples and oranges. Japan was a country. Al Qaeda isn’t.

You are neglecting that there was precious little criticism about Afghanistan, but the so-called ‘war on terrorism’ is an entirely different ballpark. In that war on terrorism, the US has actively promoted oppression, violation of the law, both local and international, and has, if you count in Iraq, both promoted terrorist recruitment and possibly given terrorists opportunity to get their hands on material to construct a dirty bomb.

In the meantime, the US has failed to convict a single defendant on Al Qaeda related charges, while allied countries, using standard law enforcement procedures, have managed to do so (pending appeal).

The historic track record is pretty solid that tackling terrorism with military means is counterproductive.

Then you posted in the wrong forum: please note the name of this one. We don’t take well to people who want to stir things up with no intention of defending their assertions.

Cite?

** Furt ** Question - How do you “take well” to something ? Get a fucking dictionary and get out of my face.

Thanks all the same !

Maybe this will help. The title of this forum is “Great Debates” not “Present some arguments while I go hoist a pint.” The expectation is that you will present your ideas, not merely request those of others. Also, the harsh words, spleen-venting forum is “The Barbeque Pit.” Perhaps you need the dictionary, as “take well to something” is a common usage.

cite? sigh television the same or the next day, but back then I didn’t think that it would of any importance so soon …

Papermache Prince - Common usage perhaps, but incorrect nonetheless. How ironic that for you, that was post number “404”…

As for addressing the issues that have been raised, I have made my points already (in my first two posts) and I am not ill-mannered enough to think that repeating myself ad nauseum will make any difference. I am listening to all the arguments that are being presented and will they will help me formulate an opinion. I presume that the posters (yourself apparently excluded) have enough intelligence to remember my points, without me having to repeatedly post them here.

Thanks again, though !

Well lets review **Tarantula’s ** replies since he wont.

I wouldn’t expect you to regurgitate your views. I would expect in GD that you would either defend and argue your view point or change it based on the answers provided. If you choose to do neither, well then I guess that wraps this thread up.

Damn! This was suppose to be the first paragraph.

Well lets review **Tarantula’s ** replies since his original post. I have snipped the communist and NI ones. Hope I didn’t miss anything.

** Grey ** Certainly does. The only thing you missed is the point.

Enjoy.

Yup, they’re staying away in droves.

Remind me again why we need a lottery in order to regulate the numbers of Irish, et al who wish to move to this undesirable land?

:rolleyes:

Perhaps you’ll help us then, by clarifying your point.

Oh what the hell. What was the point? Was it just to stir people up or to engage in debate?

It seems like tarantula’s having a hard time getting over 9-11.

:stuck_out_tongue:

No, its a reasonable debate. “Why was 9-11 so traumatic for Americans” would be/has been interesting. Its just that the OP is not engaging in the debate, that we’ve been trying to build.

Tarantula,

Do you live in a small hole or something? Do you really think that its all just about “who owns the north?”

If attitudes like yours were prevalent, Equal Rights wouldn’t exist.

Why do you give credence to the words of Saddam Hussein. That’s like quoting Charles Manson on abortion issues. So he condemed the WTC attack. That ,and a dollar, won’t get you a 50 cent cup of coffee.