“Realistic perspective”? That some people who post there anonymously are petty shitheads, but are too afraid for the rest of us on the non-anonymous board to know that about them? What “realistic perspective” is given with the nasty comments about people’s appearance, personal problems, and other low-blow nonsense?
Sure, as I’ve conceded before, once in a while some hotbutton political issue is discussed there. If a board there existed soley for the discussion of such “Forbidden” issues, perhaps it wouldn’t have the bad reputation that this anonymous board does.
That makes no sense. If there’s no difference, why not post under your username? If it makes no difference, why create an anonymous LJ in the first place? There’d be no need. Just post whatever you feel, under your username, and don’t worry if a bunch of people (who you don’t know) think poorly of you for it. Why the secrecy?
As trublmakr admitted, she sometimes posts criticisms anonymously because she knows if she posted what she felt under her username, she’d get “piled on.” But who cares if you get “piled on” if you don’t care what people think in the first place?
Then why are you even responding to me, and (I assume) trying to defend the behavior of those who snark anonymously? Our opinions, good or bad, don’t really matter. Post here, post there, under your username. According to you, it doesn’t make any difference, does it? So why the anonymity?
I don’t know either way. I’d assume that she wasn’t, but then again, I assumed that since we have the Pit, nobody would need to go to the trouble to create an anonymous snark board, but apparently some of you (and are my suspicions correct—that you’re a particpant as well?) feel the need. Go figure.
I wasn’t addressing Cranky at this point, but trublmakr, who admits that she occasionally (okay, to be fair, rarely) posts what she really feels there, because she doesn’t want to take the criticism she’d recieve here.
Funny, that place is not full of glowing praise, though. Quite the opposite. So please, spare me this. It’s mostly just a place to be negative, crappy, petty, and with no accountability.
Interestingly enough, I’m less disgusted by most of the anon snark than I am by this thread being hijacked by off-topic inane flirty BS.
Yosemite: If you elect to believe that Cranky is posting some of the horrible malicious stuff that’s on there, even after everything she’s posted here AND with her LJ available for perusal, I’d say you are far more lacking than she.
When Cranky said “not all the anons,” I think she meant posters, not threads or communities.
Personally, I don’t like the Pit as much as I used to because, with a larger user base, there’s a lot more lame fluff to push aside to get to the GOOD threads.
Amusingly enough, as Cranky is being poked at here for posting anon there, I have been sniped at there for posting under my handle. I’ve been told that I’m one of the scum and that a lot of people have lost respect for me because they know I post there. :rolleyes: So you’ll forgive me if people who sputter and point and exaggerate and go wild-eyed with righteous indignation about the anon places do nothing but amuse me.
Anyone who “can’t believe people would be that ugly” must never read the news or watch unedited stand-up comedy.
Hama, you’re one of the contingent over there that has the courage to post under your own name, so you’re definitely not one of the ones I have a problem with. Nobody who posts over there under their own name do I have a problem with, because most of the people who do that aren’t the ones oinking the loudest from the deepest spots in the mud.
Jin, it’s not even about me being thin-skinned. To my knowledge, I’ve never even been mentioned over there the very few times I’ve popped in to look around. I have, however, seen some of the most vile, slimy bullshit spoken about Dopers I like, about things that are so incredibly petty that I would hope most adults would simply not even bother talking about them.
And there’s the major problem I have with the kind of conduct that the anonymous atmosphere over there encourages. Board pseudo-anonymity is NOT the same as the real anonymity over there. Yes, we don’t usually go by our real names on here. But the pseudonym we choose (usually) doesn’t change. Reputations hang on those pseudonyms over here. Friends are attracted by what those pseudonyms write on this board. And people from here sometimes meet each other in real life and have a party where the pseudonyms intermingle with real names. It’s not real anonymity over here, unless you’re a total paranoid agorophobe who never, ever reveals any details whatsoever about your personality or relationships outside the board.
With that in mind, it’s futile to try to compare Board pseudo-anonymity with LJ anonymity. If they actually were equivalent, then people wouldn’t mind posting their slime under their own boardnames. But they don’t. And they don’t because they’re afraid of a pile-on, or that what they say will make people dislike them. I don’t know about other people, but I generally have a rule that becomes relevant in a situation like that: If what you want to say is so vile that you’re afraid to have your name associated with it, maybe you shouldn’t say it.
It IS cowardly. And it’s crabs-in-a-barrel the way the people who DO post under their own name over there get attacked for having the audacity to put a face to their words. My God, they might make us look bad for being quivering cowards crouching in the shadows!! If you can’t put your name to your words, then don’t fucking say them! There are exceptions to that, but they involve political disobedience, oppressive regimes and the prospect of life imprisonment, torture and execution, not the possibility of social ostracization.
No, you misunderstand what I’m saying. I’ve repeatedly said that of course I’m disinclined to believe she’d be capable of anything nasty or petty. But my faith in people being what they appear to be has taken a big hit lately, since we now know that many don’t reveal who they “really” are here. They save that for the anonymous boards, where they can spew their “real” (nasty, mean, petty) feelings. So while I have no reason to believe that Cranky isn’t a nice person, my faith that anyone is what they say they are is a little shaky these days. I hope you follow what I’m saying here. Also, I was surprised by Cranky’s somewhat carefully vague answers to my questions. That doesn’t seem to be her style, usually.
I think trublmakr was the one who said that, and yeah, I think you’re right—she meant indivduals.
I, for one, am not trying to skewer her too badly. I just can’t figure out why someone who doesn’t seem to have a lot of bile in them (and Cranky certainly doesn’t appear to) would find any appeal in participating in that place.
I don’t feel that way about it. At least you stand by your words, which I can respect. I don’t recall you writing anything terribly venemous. If you have, I’d feel the same way about you (based on what you wrote) that I would if you’d written it in the Pit. Because at least I know that you wrote it.
On that note, do you see the irony in dantheman’s claim that anonymous or under your username, it doesn’t make any difference? Didn’t you warn us, earlier in this thread, that anyone who posts anonymously on those boards (with the purpose of telling everyone there what a bunch of jerks they are) will be told that they’re “doing the same thing” because they’re posting anonymously themselves? So, you warned, “don’t do that”? And I responded that those who post under their username are also fed some other version of spin? And here comes dantheman with a full rundown of that spin. “It doesn’t matter, we’re all anonymous anyway.” That was pretty funny, I must say.
I think the thing that surprises some of us is when people we virtually “rub elbows” with, and assumed we knew well enough, occasionally turn out to be slimy snakes in the grass. That’s a bit off-putting, no matter what the setting.
A more realistic perspective on what those particular people actually think. Let’s say the same issue was discussed in both venues. If a person (nonanon, of course) said one thing here and then expressed an entirely different sentiment anonymously, they’d be a hypocrite - but of the two sentiments, the anonymous one is far more likely to be the sincere one. Now, obviously, we cannot tell who’s being sincere about what.
I just think it’s patently unfair to brand it as this den of thieves, because not only don’t you know who’s saying what, you don’t know how many people are saying it. Which, to me, means the relevance of the comments is severely diminished.
That’s true. But it is what it is. If you want to get all hot under the collar over what anonymous people are saying, that’s your choice. But it does serve a purpose, and not just the malicious type.
I didn’t say there was no difference, I said there was no real difference. Those who post under their “real” names are taking at least a mild risk that their own words could come back to haunt them. People have a right to want to protect whatever reputation they think they’ve acquired. If they choose not to complicate things by posting anonymously, so what?
I am responding to you because you seemed to be ignorant of the nuances of that particular journal. You seem to be very closeminded and willing to lump everyone and everything having to do with that journal under one negative classification.
I’ve already explained the value of anonymity. If you don’t wish to accept that explanation, please feel free to come up with one of your own.
I thought I’d also already explained the difference between the Pit and an anonymous journal.
Here’s another point. You have to be a member to post here. You do not need to be a member to post there. Absolutely anyone can post. So let’s say you were banned from here for whatever reason, real or imagined. You can post over there to your heart’s content. (I think one person even posted there saying they’d never been to this message board.)
As to why someone wouldn’t just post under their SD name, some people can’t be bothered to set up an account. Or they have one, but the name isn’t the same as it is on here (see paulberserker, for example). Now, people could post anonymously and simply sign their post with their SD name, but who would believe them?
Yes, I’m a participant. I post with my name, but only because I decided very early on that’s how I was going to go about it, and I don’t want to change my mind on it. I don’t begrudge anyone for posting anonymously, not in a million years. For all I know, they could be doing so once or twice. For all I know, they could be saying nice things only.
I didn’t say otherwise. But there have been entries dealing with “who’s the hottest” and “who would you like to get in bed” and so forth. There are people here who’ve had serious disagreements with each other, who’ve had gigantic arguments in the Pit, sometimes on a personal level. If either of them posted something laudatory on here, they’d look hypocritical, wouldn’t they? But they can do so over there without the extra baggage. Those kind of entries are useful, because people who don’t think people like them or appreciate them can indeed find some validation - it just won’t be on the same scale as here, where one nice thing can snowball into a lovefest, thus diminishing the original idea.
It’s usually wise, I think, to simply ignore the throwaway insults and the like, and instead concentrate on posts that are supported with fact. For example, that whole situation with Kaitlyn - someone went through and checked his/her stories, looking over old posts, and then posted the links for others to peruse for themselves. It’d be one thing if someone said, “dan sure is a jerk” and another thing if they said, “dan sure is a jerk, look at this thread.” See the difference?
Where it’s most valuable to me, however, is in the discussion - often sincere - of topics that aren’t permitted on here, threads that are locked quickly on here. Stagemanger, TubaDiva, Wally, and so on.
Hope I’m permitted to respond to this, since it wasn’t directed at me.
I hope you don’t think you’re quoting me with “It doesn’t matter, we’re all anonymous anyway.” That’s not what I said, and it wasn’t my meaning. I am glad you’re amused by it, though.
It is funny, though, when an anonymous person bitches at the other anonymous people for being anonymous. Some do it as sort of a running joke, I think, but some are probably ignorantly serious.
Or just the “mean for the sake of being mean” one. There’s plenty of that. It isn’t always about being “brutally honest,” it’s about “let’s see what sort of crap I can come up with, even if I have to use my imagination.” How is that productive? It isn’t.
Pardon me if I don’t worry about the poor delicate feelings of the anonymous snarkers. We judge people (who we don’t know because they’re too afraid to let us find out) by what is actually written. And what is written isn’t pretty. What is “unfair” about judging what we see?
Yeah. Meaning that they’d have to risk dealing with the consequences of their words—you know, like mature grown up people are expected to do.
You mean people have a right to protect the facade of a reputation that they haven’t really earned, because they aren’t really what people think they are? I call BS on that. That’s what cowards and children do—they want to behave in a certain way but not have to deal with the consequences.
They can do it, and the rest of us can think they’re childish cowards for doing so. So what? Our good opinion is one that should be earned, after all, and many here won’t think those who post mean-sprited things anonymously have earned it.
Who cares what I think? I don’t know the usernames of the people who post there, after all. Why bother to educate me? My good opinion, or anyone else’s good opinion, should be absolutely meaningless.
Anonymity, in order to avoid negative social consequences for being who you really are, is cowardly. How about that?
And you can post under your (banned) username, can you not?
But as you said above, how do we really know it’s you posting under your real username? And if you do it, and hamy does it, why is it beyond unreasonable for other regular participants to find a way to do it as well?
It’s not the nice posts that are judged harshly, though. It’s the nasty ones, and they are in abundant supply.
And those could still exist on a board soley dedicated to such discussions. There’s no need to allow discussions about who is the ugliest, or who is the biggest attention whore. Yet the board in question mostly thrives on that, does it not?
Most of my “coyness” related to the way the thread was going. I started posting a nitpicky factual observation. But then it was moving into issues of my character, what I personally felt about the anon communities, and how I could justify some really unpleasant things other people have authored. Sorry, I’m not taking up the reins. Frankly, we probably agree on a lot of the basics. To a large degree, I believe many of the criticisms against the anon communities are fair ones.
Perhaps people in this thread already suspect I’m the author of some awful things. That’s unfortunate, but I don’t believe heartfelt denials are going to change that.
This may be the heart of it. It sounds (to me) you’ve already made up your mind about what those communities are. I agree with you in many ways, but we differ on some fine points and those are the ones that explain “what a nice girl like me was doing in a place like that.” It’s useless for me to keep repeating “not all posts have mean intent” because it’s been said a half-dozen times already. I’m not talking about the threads that are intentionally nice (those are rare) but the numerous posts with no malice in them at all, or malice only directed to the other anon posters (for example, and I paraphrase, “Albert Einstein was an atheist, you dumbass!.” If your eyes don’t read them that way, how can I change that? I don’t see how my perspective could change your dogged (though flattering!) belief that people like me don’t belong there.
It’s also not always about “let’s see what sort of crap I can come up with, even if I have to use my imagination.” It’s not always about any one thing.
Because you’re judging every single person who may or may not post on there by the same criteria - you seem to be assuming that anyone who posts there is an evil, malicious creep. This would seem to be unfair to most reasonable people, because it’s easily demonstrated that not even every post over there is evil and malicious. Therefore your assumption - if that’s indeed what you’re making - is patently false.
That’s ridiculous. Everyone does things in order to avoid consequences. What is it that you’re calling BS on, exactly? Look, it’s not that complicated: People often post there what would get them in trouble here. Some of them undoubtedly do so anonymously because they fear repercussions from the staff here. Others don’t want to be bothered with the preening melodrama that even the most innocuous negative comment might generate.
“Our good opinion”? Nonsense.
You either attach importance to anonymous opinions, or you accept them for what they are. You’re clearly doing the former, for whatever reason.
So you’re saying you want to end this discussion? If that’s your meaning, then fine with me. You seem hopelessly and happily ignorant to me.
That would depend on whether someone already has the name. LiveJournal has over six million members.
I didn’t say it was “beyond unreasonable.” I am saying it’s their choice, and I don’t begrudge them for doing it. Right or wrong, they have to live with it, not me.
It seems to me that you’re judging all of them the same.
This particular anon journal isn’t dedicated to such things, and it’s never pretended to be. In fact, none of them have, as far as I know. My feeling is that such a board would be stagnant before too long, so the moderators of this one have decided to let everything in.
If you’d like to create a journal dedicated to discussing stuff that can’t be discussed here, I could show you how to set one up. You know, since you seem so enamored with the idea.
I’m not inclined to believe that you are. But like I said, I don’t really know that anyone is who they say anymore. I guess I never did, but especially not now.
I see that there are small pockets of some “usefulness” amongst the shit. I see that some posts aren’t too nasty—a few are even reasonable. But I also see a lot of bullshit, mostly bullshit. And I see people defending the bullshit.
Just so it’s clear, I am not talking about those who only post non-malicious things, anonymously or not. If they could post the same exact thing on these boards without feeling that their reputation would be altered, then their motivation is not the same as those who are posting anonymously because they are too afraid to take the hit to their board reputation. If, however, they post anonymously because they don’t want to deal with the “pile on,” then they are a coward. Either don’t say it, kvetch about it amongst your friends, start a private journal about it, or post it under your own username. Posting it anonymously (but for everyone to see anyway) is gutless.
No, as I said to Cranky, it isn’t. A lot of your comments I’ve already answered in my post to her, so I’ll cut to the chase:
The idea that people “have a right to want to protect whatever reputation they think they’ve acquired.” If they think their reputation is going to take a hit because of what they actually are—actually feel—then their “reputation” was all a facade anyway. I don’t respect their desire to keep their facade of a reputation intact through anonymous snarking. Doesn’t mean that they can’t do whatever they’re gonna do, but I’m not going to agree with you about their motivations. They obviously have a reputation that they don’t deserve.
I think you’ve got it backwards. My opinion of those who post snark anonymously is very low. I may not take what they say terribly seriously, but I think less of them for saying it.
Why do you care either way? I’m simply judging a bunch of anonymous strangers by their actual words, that’s all.
As I explained to Cranky, not exactly. But even if I was, who cares? I don’t know who they are, and supposedly, they shouldn’t care what I think (we’re all anonymous anyway, right?).
I think you’re misstating yourself. The idea that people should be able to protect their own reputations isn’t an illegitimate one in and of itself. But when the hits against said reputation are of their own doing, that right is a little more tenuous.
I don’t mean value, I mean importance. The fact that you’ve been harping on the malicious comments for what’s now a two-page thread does, in fact, mean you are attaching some importance to them.
Hm. “Why do you care”? “Who cares?” “So what?”
Does this mean you’ve lost the argument? It sounds to me like you’re saying we shouldn’t take you, and your position, seriously.
It’s more the fact that people we know here, “rub elbows” with, so to speak, are capable of them. So it’s not necessarily the comments, but the character of those making them. Only we don’t know who they are—just that they are amongst us, relying on board reputations they may not really deserve.
It means it’s a two-way street. You seem to want to educate me and correct me on my harsh judgments of those who participate on those boards. And I’m asking, “Why bother?”
Stop and think about this a minute, yosemite. This is an Internet message board. Apart from a few posters, I’ve never met anyone on here. People can (and do) create whatever persona they want on here, regardless of who they actually are in real life. We’ve had ample proof of that in the past few days.
As much as people want SDMB to be, it’s not a “community.” It’s an Internet message board, with all the anonymity that implies. Heck, for all anyone here knows, all my brilliant, funny, insightful posts were written by my pet llama, and I wrote all the stupid, vapid, inflammatory ones. There’s no way to tell.
Getting concerned about an anonymous board someplace, when this place is, in essence, an anonymous board, seems patently silly to me.
I don’t really disagree with any of that. But that’s why I don’t attach any significance to what people say on there unless it’s accompanied by a link or other substantiating info - or they post under their name, of course. Lends some sort of legitimacy, that’s all.
And having said that… did you just post there under the green_yosemite name? They seem to be claiming to be you.
You’re right—none of us should take anyone else at face value, because who really knows? It does seem bizarre that they’d go to all this trouble to start a place to post anonymously (to protect a reputation that we don’t really know is real in the first place).
Well, with that, I’m tapped out for the moment with this.
dan, yes. I stood up for a few Dopers there quite recently using that name, and to express the same thing that I’m saying here. (Surely the regulars all knew that by now, right? I just assumed that I made myself obvious enough. . . )
If you mean regulars here, I don’t follow things here closely enough and probably missed it. If you mean regulars over there, I don’t think I remember seeing the name - but more to the point, anyone can claim to be the same person, even if they have the same name.
Actually, I’m saying just the opposite … the only way we (as posters on a message board) can take anything here is at face value. When you boil it down, we have no idea of the intent behind the words, or the person behind the intent. You either have to accept everything that somebody posts as true, or automatically discount it completely. Which is the same choice that one has to make when reading an “anonymous” forum.
For all anybody here knows, I could be Stephen Hawking! Or Bill Gates! Or Karl Rove! Or a raving nobody from Alabama!
That’s the beauty of the Internet.
(P.S. I’m actually Donna Summer. Don’t tell anybody.)
Well, there is a little place called The Pit, you know. If you’ve got a problem with someone, and need to say it, at least own up to it. “but oh, I don’t want to get piled on or have people think badly of me.” Well, guess what? You can’t always have it both ways. I actually think LESS of those who go to LJ and snark anonymously than those who post it in the Pit in their own names.
Hamadryad, I for one have gained respect for you seeing you post there and using your name. You and I may not be friends, but at least you have the balls to stand behind your own words, rather than hide behind “anonymous” because you don’t want people to think badly of you. That’s something to admire.
Well, DUH. I’ve had some very hurtful things said about me. And no, I shouldn’t take it seriously, but it still hurt. And no, it wasn’t the teeth thing-that was just stupid enough to be funny. It doesn’t matter how old I am or how much I’ve changed-all of a sudden, I’m back in seventh grade, trying desparately to pretend I don’t hear the whispers as I walk into the class room, that I don’t notice my desk has been trashed. It makes me feel like I’m 12 years old all over again. Yeah, I’m pathetic and I know they’re going to trash me further. Well, good for them. Apparently, because I don’t like people trashing things in my life that I may be sensitive about, I’m a loser.
Especially since, for all I know, it could be someone I consider to be a friend, who makes nice to my face and then trashes me behind my face. If someone has a problem with me, at least have the balls to say it to me directly. Post it in a comment in MY LJ, if you don’t want to do it here, or e-mail me.
I’ve seen people gleefully discuss an instance where a poster had a nervous breakdown in reaction to meds that Doper was on. I’ve seen people make nasty remarks about peoples’ children. I’ve seen accusations of CRIMES committed (a Doper put child porn on some other Doper’s computer, that there were drugs and booze being passed around right in front of children at Dopefests, that various Dopers are cheating on their spouses, etc). I also see a lot of homophobia and down right slurs-“tricked out tranny”, “gay-ass fag”, etc.
A lot of the stuff said-about poster BEHAVIOR, could be said in the Pit. But these people obviously don’t want people to think badly of them, so they go to LJ. And don’t give me that crap that “everyone’s anonymous on the Internet, anyways!” IF that’s the case, they’d use their names over at LJ, rather than post anonymously.
Look, I don’t care about there being a place to anonymously discuss things that happen here without getting in trouble (topics forbidden on the Dope, or wanting to ask a question about a sensitive issue without being embarassed), but when it’s just a place to bring down people, that’s not something I’d be proud of. Hell, people often do that on the SDMB lj-talk about some situations that we aren’t allowed to on the boards. But they do so under their Doper identities.
Again-it’s not the community itself-it’s that a lot of people use them as a place to completely trash and humiliate others while they don’t have to own up to it. THAT is what I have a problem with. Not anonymous places in and of themselves, but that people there will post outright hateful shit and get away with it. Don’t tell me that “Oh, well so and so was actually DEFENDED when his/her name was brought up!” So what? Yeah, you stick up for so and so, but what’s his/her name is getting dragged through the mud. So it seems only the “uncool” kids get picked on.
So maybe I’m a pathetic loser with no life-but you’re going out of your way to talk about how I’m a pathetic loser with no life, without admitting who you are. So what does that make YOU?
Is it really a bad thing to occassionally post there, anonymously of course, if you just wanna gush on about how cute someone is or that you have a crush? I mean, you can’t really do it on here much without being thought an attention whore, flirt or stalker (maybe even a combination of all three)? I mean, it’s not like I do that. Yeah, that’s it. It’s, uh, a friend of a friend of mine, who’s their third cousin twice removed’s hair dresser when they’re in some podunk BFE. My story and I’m stickin’ to it.
Oh, and Ms. Summers, may I get you to sign my original LP copy of Bad Girls?
