Question about new home solar system

We are getting a solar system installed on our new house. 9000kwh. It’s not a battery system, it feeds it back into the grid and we get credits. Should bring our electric bill down to nothing.

Each panel has it’s own inverter turning the power into AC. And this is pushed out to the electric company.

So, how does this work? Power is coming into the house from the electric company. And at the same time we are pushing power out that we get credit for. This is not a battery system. The power is coming in, at the same time we are pushing it out. Huh?

If you are generating more than you are using then the excess power generated gets pushed out, while if you are generating less than you are using (or none) then the needed power difference gets pulled in.

I have similar confusion over electricity. I always thought of it as a one way street from the generator to the home. How does the grid “absorb” the electrons my panels are creating? Why doesn’t it get clogged up?

This is what I don’t understand. I never thought it was a ‘two way street’. I’ve done a bit of wiring in remodeling projects. But that’s about it.

The specific device used is:

Right, I know about inverters. But how does it go in two directions. It’s I assume 60 cycles per second in AC. Does a grid tie inverter, do a switch-a-roo where it does + and - opposite of the incoming which might be - + and pushes that power out? Or something like that? Seems impossible.

Small nitpick. That is 9 MegaWatt-hours. That isn’t what you intended. It is going to be 9 kW.

I assume you are getting Enphase micro-inverters.

To answer the basic question, no you are not both pushing and pulling power onto your grid connection.
The inverter monitors the voltage and current, and it is able to vary the voltage it generates very precisely so that the net effect is that power is delivered into the grid from the inverter. Since the mains is alternating current, the inverter must first synchronise itself with the mains frequency very precisely. It is then able to match the mains, and at any point in the AC cycle produce power at exactly the right voltage to yield a net flow of power from the inverter into the mains. This leads to an annoying limitation. If the mains power goes out, the inverters can’t operate, as they have nothing to synchronise with. This is also a good thing, as they would otherwise try and deliver power into a dead grid, which they won’t be able to do, and if they tried, might lead to bad outcomes for people trying to fix the outage. Systems that can operate off grid, or in the face of grid failure need extra effort.

I say this seriously. We really need to get the preview function working again. I opened this thread honestly wondering if the topic was physics and other questions about moving to a planet in orbit around another star.

Thanks. 9 Megawatt hours would power the entire subdivision I suppose.

Was told that each panel/module will have it’s own inverter built into the panel. So, I guess in a series (or is it parallel) so that if one panel goes out, it does not take the entire system down.

I understand that the system has to go down if the power goes out. It’s not a battery system. Something I may look into in the future depending on how reliable the power is.

So, when you say synchronize to the mains, I still don’t understand. How do you push power out when there is power coming in? Is it a cycles per second thing? And the solar inverter does the opposite of the incoming. Or something???

Ha Ha… I didn’t seriously think that, but it did occur to me.

What’s the weather like in spring on Alpha Centauri III?

I could have worded the topic better I suppose. But there have been days when I would like to move to another planet. Instead, I’m just moving 100 miles away, but it may as be a new world.

I’ll probably mangle the water analogy, but imagine you have 2 water sources coming together to your house from 2 ponds uphill. Your house only needs X gallons at Y psi. If one water source is providing 60 psi and 5 gpm and the other is providing 62psi and 4 gpm and If your house needs 9 gpm it will take all the water. If it needs less the water at 62 psi will flow uphill into the other pipe. Clear as mud?

You don’t. The inverters generate power. Your house uses power. If your house needs more power than the solar is generating, additional power comes from the grid. If your house uses less power than the solar generates, the power not used goes out onto the grid.

The trick with the inverters is only how they exactly balance their puny power generation so that they deliver exactly their rated power. That is where synchronising comes in. Mains power is alternating current. Which means the voltage rises and falls 50 or 60 times a second, reversing for half the cycle. We do this because we can use transformers to raise and lower the voltage, which makes power distribution vastly more efficient. But it makes the life of inverters a bit more complicated. The inverter must vary the voltage of its output to exactly cycle at the same rate as the mains, and then adjust its output voltage exactly so that it pushes the power it is capable of generating into the mains. The thing about synchronising the inverters is that even if the sun is out and the solar panels are generating power, if there is no mains power to your house, the system won’t generate any power to run your house. That is a surprise to many people. It seems weird that you have the capability to generate power, and yet if the street supply goes out, your own generation capability can’t step in and power your house. In reality it could, but you need a whole slab of extra stuff to do it safely. The same is true of batteries as well. Simple (cheap) battery installations actually stop working if the street power goes out.

It is probably easier to just think of the system without the complication of alternating current. It still works the same. Power goes from where it is generated to where it is used. The grid outside your house is just the same. There are many power generators on the grid, and there are many power users. Power flows from generators to the users. Your solar is just yet another generator. Your house is just another user. The wires you connect everything together with don’t care. They are just pipes for power to slosh around in.

Thanks. Starting to understand. The way I understood it was that the power I generate Is ALWAYS going to the grid. All of it. And I get credit for that. Did not know that my house would consume my power and grab extra when needed.

If I’m generating more than I need, I send it out over the grid and get credits. I think that’s sort of how it works.

Pretty damn cool if you ask me. If I’m even close to understanding how this works…

You could set things up to work that way. Depends upon how the metering systems are set up.
You end up with a smart meter no matter what. It knows which way the power is flowing, and generally that determines what your credit or bill looks like. You could give the solar its own meter, and connect it to the mains directly, outside of where your house connection and meter is. Then they would operate independently.
That would be a very strange thing to do. Although government incentives and subsidies can lead to all manner of weird results. Usually what you get paid of power is vastly less than what you pay for power. So you always want to use your own generated power.
Years ago my parents installed solar under a ridiculously generous subsidy scheme intended to kick start installation of domestic solar. They were paid more for power they generated than they paid for normal power. Instead of doing things like running the dishwasher in the day to use the solar power, they ran it at night. Those schemes are mostly long dead. I get a pittance for my generated power. So I learn to run power hungry appliances when the sun is out.

Thanks @Francis_Vaughan. This is quite new to me. But yeah, I will look closer at power costs cause it’s different at different times.

New home will likely be power hungry. And it’s got a hot tub (which we may use, don’t know). But it’s just the two of us. Give us a light and a chess board, music and some beers and we are good all night.

Trying to figure out how to play chess in the hot tub. Not something that floats. I want a projection screen and a control.

The new solar system will have a place to go online to check individual panels health. So I imagine it will also tell us what’s coming in and going out. That’ll be cool, but I’ll probably bore everyone to death about it.

That’s exactly how my system works. Similar to yours, I have 20 individual panels with Enphase micro-inverters attached. For reasons (available roof space, mostly) our system slightly underproduces relative to our need. So typically, we consume all of the power from our system and pull an additional amount from the grid to cover us.

The reality is that when you look at the graphs on the power company’s website, we over produce mid-day and provide power to the grid, but we more than make that up with the power we consume the rest of the day and night (when the panels are offline for obvious reasons).

Our system was perfectly sized when installed (we ran a surplus the first year), but we added AC and switched our gas heat to a heat pump and now we don’t. Realistically I don’t have room to add panels, but I could in theory replace my existing panels with more efficient ones on the market now. I just think besides the ‘ahh’ factor of getting paid by the electric company, there’s no ROI in it for me.

Coolio. I’m going to totally geek out on this, watch the graphs, and follow my wife around turning off lights :wink: But, with 9kw, available we may be pushing more during the day and it evens out.

Moving to suburbia. We do have open space behind out house, but now I’m gonna be mowing grass again instead of plowing snow. New mower is battery, so is string trimmer. I’ve mown LOTS of grass, it’s so nice to just roll it out of the garage, and push a button. No cursing involved. Yet.

I like to think of it more or less as one big-ass circuit that connects everything, like a huge river with a bunch of streams that feed into it and out of it. Unlike natural rivers, though, the electricity basically “cycles” in one big loop, around and around, and equalizes as it goes… (as @Tride was explaining). Maybe it’s more like a closed-loop lazy river at a fancy resort/water park, in that it just goes round and round in a big circle. You can take a drink from it, or pee into it, but it’s the same body of water that will circle around and around. It’s an ongoing circuit, not a one-way trip.

When you “use” power, you take it out of that river (and ultimately turn it into heat that “evaporates” into the air), but any unused power, or power that you generate, just flows back into that big network to be consumed by someone else… might be your next-door neighbor, might be the utility, might be nobody. You can’t really measure “your” individual electrons; they just become part of that great river.

It’s a tortured analogy and the actual electromagnetic physics and technologies involved are super complicated, but mostly don’t matter for a homeowner. The payments you get are just a matter of mathing it out via meters that monitor your usage and production, plus/minus any incentives or disincentives (many states/regions have too much solar now and have to actually disincentivize it so it doesn’t destabilize the grid, like having a million people all peeing into the lazy river exactly at 3:04pm…)


Also, I don’t know if you already signed a contract, but if not, can I strongly recommend that you get 2-3 quotes from different area dealers?

I used to work in this industry (in manufacturing, retail, and installation) and the overall installed prices can vary dramatically between companies or even individual salespeople. A lot of the stuff is imported foreign commodity goods heavily subsidized by Chinese government price dumps, especially the solar modules themselves (what we call the “panels”), so many dealers have to rely on predatory pricing schemes or wily salespeople to make a profit. It’s entirely possible to get ripped off by a factor of like 1.5x-2x or more if you’re going into this blindly. If they offer a lease, be especially wary — it’s usually better to buy these days (separately financing through a bank if you need to).

Don’t just go with the first nice company you talk to, research customer experiences in your particular area and what the median price per watt should be. And don’t buy into long-term warranties; many of these small-scale regional solar companies won’t survive long enough to outlast the modules and inverters. It’s an incredibly cutthroat and volatile industry with installers and manufacturers dying all the time.

Edit: Also, never trust your dealer’s production or payback estimates. Do your own math — there are online calculators available, like Google’s Sunroof for an easy to use one or the government-run PVWatts calculator for a detailed one — to ballpark it. Many dealers are dishonest about this and you will often end up getting less than what they estimated and they will blame it on weather or whatever when in reality they were just overestimating on purpose.

Thanks. I have a friend that was the business. I’ve got a good reputable company.

My wife was there today (I’m back in the mountains). An engineer came out to finish design and make sure things look right. He was there for an hour inspecting (attic, breaker panel, meter, roof).