For more on how much of a right to free speech an employee of a sports team has, google Al Campanis.
Addressed in post #37 and elsewhere.
But that’s part of the scripted performance. If before the take, you require me to join in the pledge of allegiance, is that within your rights too?
I would think that, if in their contract, it stipulated, “as part of a theatrical performance, all team members are required to stand and show the outward appearances of proper respect for the flag”, that could be covered, but if your employer just requires you to perform a patriot act, while not acknowledging that it is scripted theater, then that is asking you to take part in political activity.
Well, no, I certainly did not say they would be locked up before, if nothing else, that would be pretty hard, since you wouldn’t know who to lock up. During, sure. Often the investigation is ongoing after charges have been made, and unless you have some pretty good connections, you are either going to be incarcerated, or have to make rather steep bail, that usually has quite a number of travel restrictions.
If you don’t make bail, you’re probably going to get fired. Even if you do, the court dates are not going to schedule around your work schedule, so there’s a good chance that you get fired there too. Even if there are not schedule conflict, “charged with a crime” is not a protected class, so they may fire you just based on the allegations alone. You could be completely exonerated, and prove your innocence beyond any shadow of a doubt (say the person who actually committed the crime not only confessed, but there is a ton of evidence, meanwhile, you have an airtight alibi half the world away), but that doesn’t mean that you get your job back.
Sure, police will get fired if they have violated enough policy to make that happen, but if they turn out to not to be convicted, or have not been found to in enough violation of policy or procedure, they will keep their jobs.
These are perks that most of us do not receive. And that is before getting into the perception of police corruption and cover-ups.
Welp, that certainly explains Al Sharpton’s taxes & Marion Barry…
Sure, if it’s an express or implied term of your contract. He was just being nit-picky, though.
I was unaware of them murdering anyone.
I think you’re wrong. Let’s say I own an auto-parts store (which has nothing to do with flags). But I decide that I want all my employees to stand while I raise the flag every morning as I open the store. And I fire any employee who refuses to stand.
Generally speaking, I could probably get away with that legally. The specific laws vary from state to state and there are some federal laws involved as well. But there’s a broad principle of at-will employment that says that I can fire any employee at any time for whatever reason unless there’s a law saying I can’t. Granted, there are a lot of laws that limit an employer’s ability to fire employees but I don’t think there’s any general law which protects a private employee from being fired over political speech.
If it happens on private property, the owners of the property can forbid political protests from employees, or anyone else. BLM wanted to protest on the Mall of America locally, and the owners said No. The protestors who tried it anyway were arrested.
The NFL has made it clear that players are encouraged but not required to stand during the National Anthem. If they want to change the rule so you can be fined, suspended, or fired if you don’t stand during the anthem, they can do that.
Regards,
Shodan
Well, but that’s at will employment, not a contract, like the player we are talking about has.
You can fire anyone for anything that’s not specifically protected. (Race, sex, etc…) You could probably fire them for singing off-key. I think I could fire someone for being a republican if I wanted to. I wonder, could I fire someone for voting, or for not voting in a given election? (obviously, I couldn’t fire them for how they voted, as I wouldn’t know that, but whether or not they voted is a matter of public record.)
With a contract, you can only fire them for reasons stipulated in the contract. I do not know if NFL players have a “patriotism” clause. If they do, then the could fire him under that. If they don’t, then they probably can’t fire him without coming up with some other reason.
I would not be surprised to see a patriotism clause start showing up in pro sports contracts. Of course, given that not all pro-sports athletes are US citizens, I wonder how well that would work.
In the NFL, teams can release players without any reason. Contracts in the NFL aren’t guaranteed like they are in some other sports. Many player contracts have guaranteed money, but if you sign a $20 million contract with none, the team can let you go without paying you a dime. There’s no need for a clause like that.
Alright, I did not know that. I was under the impression that a contract had some level of protection for the player.
So, when you hear that someone signed a 5 year contract, the team could decide to let them go after just a year (or less), because they were not playing as well as the owners wanted? I guess I do not understand the point of a contract in the NFL then.
The NFL player’s contract is a fairly standardized document. It has 25 paragraphs
Paragraph 15 allows the player to be fired at the end of his contract (all contracts are for one year only - multiple years require multiple contracts) for “conduct reasonably judged by the League Commissioner to be detrimental to the League or professional football.” (Cite- pdf.) So if the League Commissioner decided that refusing to stand for the anthem is detrimental to professional football, out he goes. So far, he has not so decided.
Regards,
Shodan
After a quick Google, what I see is: NFL contracts contain a guarantee and salary. Typically the guarantee is paid up front but pro-rated for the life of the contract. i.e, it counts against the salary cap (depending on accounting decisions) typically equally each year. So, letting a guy go who has been paid a $6m guarantee and still has 3 of 6 years on his contract, reduces the team’s salary room against their cap by that $1M each year for 3 more years. As a result, it does usually not make sense to arbitrarily let good/expensive players go.
So, he still could not be fired until the end of the season, or is there something that would allow them to fire him early?
There is also the collective bargaining agreement (cite) which specifically allows teams to fine players for a variety of infractions, including “conduct detrimental to the club.”
The ability of a team to penalize a player, and ultimately suspend him, was tested in 2005 when the Eagles suspended Owens for four games and then announced he would not play in the rest of the season. This was because, primarily, that Owens ignored the coaching staff and publicly criticized the team for paying him enough money.
It is perfectly clear that football teams have ways to punish players for exercising First Amendment rights whether on or off the field (e.g., Owens complaining that his coaches suck) in ways short of terminating the player’s contract.
The player generally has an opportunity to seek arbitration for such punishment, but anyone asserting that Kaepernick must either be fired or allowed to continue his protest is simply in error. I’m not weighing in on the propriety of the protest, only that the team and ultimately the NFL Commissioner hold most of the cards. To the extent that they wish to let the protest continue, that’s up to them; but the collective bargaining agreement does require that any punishment for similar activity be treated equally. So, for example, if Kaepernick with his large contract wishes to protest, and the team doesn’t punish him, that’s fine; but if a rookie being paid the league minimum who barely made the cut wishes to carry out the same protest, the team cannot drop the hammer on that rookie for doing the same thing that Kaepernick is doing.
If by “fire” we mean immediately cut from the team, summarily, without due process, then just in the last few days:
has been fired.
Miller has been charged, but not yet tried, for assault and other douche behavior. Hopefully the 49ers do not owe the douche any more than a few weeks severance pay, if any.
Admittedly what Kaepernik did does not sink to the depths of what Miller did. Let us say Kaepernik was a lesser douche and Miller was a greater douche. IMO let Kaepernik off with a week or two suspension without pay.
As has been mentioned the NFL is notorious for not having guaranteed contracts. Get hurt and you are out with no money. That is not to say there are no guaranteed contracts. Kaepernick managed to have 1.5 good years and was able to negotiate a contract with big guarantees. I think the 9ers are on the hook to him for 13 million this year and can be cut without penalty at the end of the year. That is why he still has a job sitting on the bench. They have to pay him anyway. He was put out there for a trade and no one was interested. He’s not worth the money. Before the protest there was speculation as to whether the team was going to eat the contract and free up a roster spot by cutting him. They decided to keep him as a backup.
They can contain a guarantee. Many do not.
Actually yes you did:
Charges come at the conclusion of an investigation. Sometimes there are some loose ends to follow up but that is not at all the same as what you are saying.
You are confusing a few different issues and you are not correct. A police officer may be able to keep his job under those conditions but that’s not because of some legal or magical protection you get by being in the profession. It’s because the individuals have an employment contract which deals with discipline and punishments. You too could have those protections if you negotiated an employment contract. Not all police officers work under employment contracts. There are states that do not have collective bargaining rights. Police officers can and do get fired on a whim.
By throwing in the word “enough” you are showing you are bringing in you preconceived notions. Every department I know about personally has a progressive discipline policy. You can’t get fired for the first offense of a minor violation of policy but there are plenty of violations that can get you fired immediately.
State v Garrity holds that a police officer can be compelled to make a statement during an investigation into violation of department policy. During an IA investigation a police officer must make a statement, the 5th amendment does not apply.
Those “perks” that apply to those departments that have contracts which grant employment protections came after decades of bargaining and negotiating to fight the old system in which you would get fired for not donating to the correct political party or because the mayor’s neighbor’s nephew wanted a job. Some still work under those conditions.
They can let the player go at any time, and only need to pay the guaranteed part of the contract. However, if they want to keep the player they need to pay him what’s in the contract. There are provisions for players getting injured as well.
There are salary cap implications but you need a degree in non-linear mathematics to understand those.
Often the guaranteed portion is upfront as a signing bonus so they lose nothing further from cutting someone. In the case of Kaepernick they thought he would be their star and franchise quarterback so his 6 year contract had $61 million in guaranteed money over the life of the contract. But it gets weird. I’m no expert but the way I read it his contract for this year was guaranteed when he was still on the team April 1st. His 2017 money isn’t guaranteed if he gets cut before April 1, 2017. The niners tried to trade him to get rid of his contract but no one especially Denver would bite. He’s been playing poorly and coming off a shoulder injury. Unless he gets to start due to an injury ahead of him he will ride the bench this year while making millions.
No contention here. I now know much more about NFL contracts than I ever thought I would care to. I appreciate it, and if I came off as antagonistic in this, I apologize, I really was curious as to how things could play out in that situation. I also actually though employees had a bit more rights than they apparently do. I am treating mine way too well. I actually did think that political affiliation was a protected class, but I was quite wrong on that. Sad, but I guess, on the upside, it does mean that I can fire anyone that does not agree with my politics.