Question for music majors

In My Humble Opinion
1

My youngest, a HS junior, is a pretty talented bassoonist. (I could bore you with her accomplishments, but for the sake of this post, please assume I am not just an overproud parent!)

She doesn’t really know what she wants to study in college, but she recently received a CD of a performance from last year, and has said she is considering majoring in music performance.

Here’s the short of my query - while she seems to have a pretty exceptional innate talent for her instrument, she really doesn’t practice much. I have no objection to her majoring in music performance (especially if done at a state school, or if she gets scholarship $). But I’m wondering if she is leaving herself open for frustration, given her current attitude towards practice.

I know very little about music or the study thereof (tho her eldest sister is a pretty accomplished flutist/pianist currently a sophomore studying music ed.) But my impression is that the majority of kids who study music performance - or at least those who succeed at it - are not only quite talented, but are also dedicated to their instrument, practicing hours daily. Am I off the mark? My kid will go for days at a time not picking up her bassoon at home, and when she does practice, it is exceedingly rare for her to practice for as long as 30 minutes.

I just want her to do what will make her happy. I’d appreciate any input any of you could provide as to what it is like to be a music performance major (and perhaps what it is like once you obtain your degree). Given her ability, I think it would be a shame if she did not continue in her music somehow at college. And I’d love it if she could get some tuition cash for it. But she claims to not be interested in music ed or music business, and I don’t want to pressure her into studying something she does not like.

2

Yep. If she doesn’t have an almost fanatical dedication (and a very thick skin), she’s bound to fail.

Sorry to say it, but I speak from experience.

3

I considered majoring in music performance. LIke your daughter I was uninterested in teaching. I was between piano teachers in my junior year of high school and interviewed with a teacher from a nearby college.
This woman was phenomenal. Her abilities blew me away. It was then that I realized that if someone that good was only teaching at a tiny college (and she didn’t seem particularly happy about it so I don’t think she was there for the love of teaching) then I didn’t have a snowball’s chance.

Music performance is extremely competitive. According to an enligh horn player from the Pittsburgh Symphony who was kind enough to come talk to us at work recently, professional performers can expect to be in rehearsals four to six hours a day, then go home and practice four more hours, minimum, with perhaps two hours of performance in the evening. Is your daughter willing to put that kind of time in?

4

To pursue performance at that level, it requires determination, ambition, and at least some dedication. Following that path just ‘because I’m good at it’ is a route to failure. Or, at least, a circuitous route to realising it’s not the right choice.

A word of caution, however: I wouldn’t jump to conclusions solely based on how much practice she currently puts in. This does need to be weighed up against how much she is being stretched at the moment, what opportunities she really has at the right level. If she’s just chugging away in a mediocre high-school band or orchestra, there’s perhaps no reason or incentive at present for her to work hard.

It could be that music is the right direction for her to be heading in, but not necessarily performance - again, for somebody at that stage, it is hard for them to see whether this is true. If performance has been the one continuum for a long period, it’s not easy to see that possibly it’s not where their future should lie.

(A point at which my advice dries up is caused by the differences between the American and British music education systems. AFAIK, the demarcation between performance, education, composition and musicology/history studies are far more strict in America. In Britain, apart from the minority on specialist music college/conservatoire courses, undergraduate-level studies tend to be far more all-encompassing. Specialisation takes place as the course progresses, but even in the final year, students will typically be expected to be pursuing multiple courses.

Using myself as an example, I knew that I wanted to follow musicology at least to Masters level by halfway through my Bachelors degree. But I still also took performance options through to the final year, with my recital counting for a quarter of my overall degree result.)

5

Another music graduate checking in…

Dinsdale, your gut instincts are correct. Unless she is totally passionate about playing and praticing, she should not major in music performance.

And don’t be seduced by college scholarships, either. Just because a college might offer her some money doesn’t mean they expect that she’ll have a successful career as a bassoonists. Bassoonists are fairly rare (compared to flutists and clarinetists, which are a dime a dozen), so even medium-level players get scholarships so they will have a few in the department for the ensembles.

But to be sure, maybe get her some lessons with a high-caliber bassoon instructor in your area, someone who will work on some advanced literature with her, and push her to her limits. She’ll either enthusiastically get into it, or will be frustrated at all the practicing required. If it’s the latter, that’s fine…she’ll at least know to look into other careers.

Right now, I’d recommend she get a *minor * in music.

6

Thanks, all.

A little more info - I was thinking that majoring music performance might not be all that bad, if she just viewed it as a way to get a subsidized LAS undergrad degree, while minoring in something she thought she might actually want to pursue as a career. In the past she has mentioned teaching biology or history, tho I’m not sure where that stands. Basically, I think she has no idea what she wants to do. After getting a music degree, say, if she wanted to be a teacher, she could pick that up pretty easily in an extra year or 2 - which woul dbe easier to pay for if she’d gotten bassoon-cash for the previous 4. Or, she could go directly into something like law school (which I can personally attest requires neither experience, training, nor particular skill!) Of course, I acknowledge the ethical consideration that with such an approach she would be taking the slot of someone who really desired a career in music.

I thought music business looked like a good option, but she claims absolutely no interest in that. I myself started off as a business major at my parents’ urging, but switched out to LAS in my Jr. year, so I am loathe to push her to study something she is pretty sure she doesn’t like.

And I’m thinking that if she does not major in something music-related, her ability to participate in the highest levels of college ensembles will be severely restricted.

She’s got an instructor she loves, and he keeps giving her more and more challenging music. She performed Mozart’s basoon concerto as a freshman, and worked out Osborne’s Rhapsody on her own over the summer. This year the HS orchestra leader and her instructor are talking about presenting Stravinsky’s Soldier’s Tale, largely because they don’t often have a strong enough bassoon. And she has routinely won or placed very highly in every regional woodwind competition she has entered.

It is kind of frustrating as a parent, because I can honestly say she is better at the bassoon as a teenager, than I have been at any endeavor in my life. A part of me wants to make sure she has the opportunity to make the most of what seems to be a pretty special talent. But, just because you are good at something doesn’t mean you have to do it. (Full disclosure requires that I admit that this is probably in my mind right now because she has been expressing a desire for an incredibly expensive Wiseman gig bag! :stuck_out_tongue: )

7

This is true, but it’s also possible that she can pick that up at college.

I had been playing (piano) for seven years when I went to college. I was a decent enough player, but really smart about theory and had a good ear. I had never been much for practicing, unless it was working on a piece I really wanted to play.

Well, I took from a guy at school who was a consumate classical musician and teacher. If I showed up without having practiced enough (or at all), he’d call me out on it. “You obviously didn’t work on this. You’re wasting our time.” It was rough and intimidating, but he was right. I quit after one semester (actually, in the middle of the second) because the pressure was too much.

But, then I went back to him sophomore year with a new attitude and a larger degree of dedication and appreciation for the lessons, for practicing, and for my teacher.

8

As a music major I had to practice probably 4 hours a day, and that was to keep my head above water. If I wanted to accel past my peers, it would’ve been more than that.

That being said, at my music school there were a plethora of options for music majors- not just performance. Music engineering, commercial music, theory and composition, music education, jazz education, music therapy, . . . you get the idea. At a large enough school of music there are enough ensembles to accomodate everyone. In fact, most students at my school were required to perform in two ensembles each semester. Admission for the non-performance majors was still rough, but obviously not as hard. You two may want to look into other music-related careers.

-Bass player!

9

Yes, but here’s one thing I found – School doesn’t make you good. Guys like Steve Vai, Kevin Eubanks, and Branford Marsalis were already at the top of their game when I went to school with them. I’m sure they learned stuff when they were there, but they already had game. They undedicated guys who started there were still undedicated when they left.

Interestingly, about a month ago I was talking to a 15-year-old about her music career. Accoding to her – and of course her parents – she is incredibly talented. This thread has got me wondering how good she really is. She was really pumped about going to Berklee. I hope I talked her out of it, so she could instead go to a real school.

10

Dinsdale, because she plays bassoon there’s a good chance she can still get a partial scholarship without majoring in performance.

That’s partly how I put myself through as an undergraduate. I was an oboist and dabbled around as a professional musician before I went to college. I knew before I started that I was not going to get a performance degree but I didn’t want to abandon something so important to me.

I had a scholarship for about 50% of my tuition, and the requirements were laughably easy (perform in two ensembles each semester, take lessons and also participate in the juries). Given the relative scarcity of either oboists OR bassoonists who don’t suck, she could probably do something similar.

BTW I’ll add my voice to the rest warning of the imperative need to live in a practice room. I knew I did not want to put in the hours it would have taken to become world class. No thank you!

11

This brings to mind the old joke:

How do you get to Carnagie Hall?

Practice!

ba dum bum…

I have a bachelor’s degree in vocal performance. After I graduated I quickly realized that finding gainful employment as a singer (even in the Orlando area with Disney right next door) was damn near impossible.

I went to work as a maid. Later I got a job in the mail room of a company where my brother in law worked, later I worked as a receptionist. Now I work in IT.

You get the picture.

It’s not that a degree in music can’t be had if she doesn’t practice, it’s the idea of what she’s going to be able to do as a bassonist who doesn’t practice with a music degree. Does she have the talent to pass an orchestra audition? What if she doesn’t practice enough to learn the pieces, what then? Will she get fired from the orchestra?

She needs to think about what she wants to do after she graduates. I think most orchestra musicians supplement their playing income by teaching private lessons or doing small group gigs but even that won’t add up to much money.

Things to consider.

12

That would be really cool if she could work something like that out.
My recommendantion yesterday was that over the course of this year we look up the bassoon teachers at the schools she would be interested in, with the idea that she schedule campus visits/lessons with them over next summer. Would you think that those visits would be the time to suggest the possibility of such an arrangement? And would she approach the prof or someone in admissions about it?

13

Yes, and she can also talk with her band/orchestra instructor in high school. All of them should be able to steer her to whomever has the information (if they don’t have it themselves).

14

This certainly sounds like a good approach. Consultation lessons (not sure if the term is the same across the pond) are very helpful in getting insight from somebody who has far more understanding and familiarity with the world she’s heading towards. Teachers at this level are inevitably constantly providing career guidance. (Mine guided me to not choose such a career…)

15

Can I bore you with mine, then?

My story: I did well playing percussion in High School. I made NJ All State wind ensemble tympani my junior year and it was downhill from there. :smiley:

I also played in the jazz band, orchestra, wind ensemble, marching band, musicals, two tours of scandinavia with a wind ensemble, and in my spare time played Rush album sides with my HS rock band and drugs and rock and roll (no sex :frowning: ) . I played in musicals and jazz combos for some local colleges my senior year. I spent a good deal of high school in the practice and band rooms because it was better than anything else there.

By the time I was ready to go to college (after scandinavia tour #2 and another two months hitchhiking over to and around the UK and the rest of the year working), I wasn’t so sure about it anymore. I loved playing and I still love playing, but that drive to practice till I bleed and preparing to audition for everything had sort of got up and went.

So I went to college and majored in liberal arts but still kept my toe in the water with lessons and a musical. I decided I wanted to major in Geography. Then I transferred to U of Colorado Boulder and majored in Geography for a semester and heard about this percussion professor/ethnomusicologist in the music school who had knowledge I wanted to tap. But of course I had to be a music major. So…

Back into the practice room that summer under the guidance of a grad student and I worked up an audition and was accepted. I pretty much just majored in music so I could study with this guy but I dropped some courses, played in the orchestra, and this and that small ensemble. And of course my rock band that was my real passion. I drifted back into Geography and History while finally settling on a Bachelor of Arts degree which I graduated with.

The Bachelor of Arts in Music as it was structured at Boulder was like half music and half whatever else you wanted study and a thesis was required at the end. It was kind of like music major lite - you got to take lessons with the profs and audition for whatever ensembles you were into and had to satisfy some other requirements (theory, ear training) plus electives, which were fun. Instead of doing a full recital all by your lonesome like the performance majors did my shorter recital was bundled together with some other students’.

So, maybe a Bachelor of Arts might be something to look into. She can still play her instrument and tap into a lot of the goodies that the music department has, and at the same time study whatever other academic field she might be into.

Then again, part of one’s musical education is learning what’s out there and what you’re up against, so starting off with performance might not be such a bad thing after all.

I think I started the rambling description of my seesawing affair with academic music programs above to illustrate that in my case I had a certain amount of talent, and a continuing love of things musical (I’m 45 and working up my banjo repertoire again after a few years off and accompanying myself with guitar) but I think I peaked early and never had the discipline and work ethic needed to make a serious go at a performance career. I saw guys in college and elsewhere that just worked their asses off and focused and burned to play in a way that I no longer did and I knew that my path lay elsewhere. Also it’s to illustrate that if the music bug bites you, it just won’t be denied and there are ways to live with it. I can still practice hours a day, but only when I’m desperate to learn something. I don’t even know if “practice” is the right word. It’s just playing. Sorry, I’m rambling again.

16

Another suggestion: if there’s anywhere nearby with a performance course which is the type of place she’s thinking of applying to, or at least is around the level at which she’s aiming, attend a couple of student concerts. This will give her a good idea of the level at which the performers are expected to be working.

17

Former music major,

Dinsdale, just out of curiosity, and no offence intended but, what are your personal qualifications on judging how good a player your daughter really is?
Secondly, define success as a bassoon player. Playing in a major symphony orchestra? Playing in the pit at on Broadway or at the NYC ballet?

If that is what success is, then your daughter, or anyone’s daughter, has very little hope at it. Just as if you daughter wanted to become an actress and you definition of success was her becoming the next Reese Witherspoon. There are tons of actors, whom you’ve never heard of, who make a living as an actor. There are tons of musicians, who don’t play in an orchestra, and don’t record with Yo Yo Ma, but they are a success none the less.

Finally, I would suggest that a junior in HS is too young to ‘have’ to have a complet life plan. She’ll need that next year, of course. Actually, I had been so convinced that I should work in music that I blew a great oppurtunity in college to start working in television. Everyone in HS said I should be a musician because I was the best player there. Big fish, small pond. Of course my HS had no TV production and I briefly did some stuff at the station but I was so convinced that my future was music, that I let pass.

18

No offense taken. 3 main reasons essentially: 1. she sounds really good - has excellent natural rhythm and musicality, a better tone, and plays more advanced music than anyone else i have heard her age; 2. she has won or placed highly in every competition/audition she has participated in (including ones with kids many years older than her); and 3. just about every instructor/conductor she has ever had has raved (unsolicited) about her ability, often presenting ensemble pieces featuring her.

I have limited personal musical expertise/ability. But I do not have a complete tin ear. And she is the youngest of 3 kids, all who have participated in music pretty heavily. As I said, her older sister is a music ed student in college, and quite accomplished at flute and piano. But even she would acknowledge that she does not have the natural ability her younger sister has, and has gotten where she is through hard work. I’ve attended hundreds of grade school, junior high, high school and college recitals, concerts, competitions, etc., and had my kids placed in tens of camps, ensembles, and recitals. I’ve gotten a pretty good rough idea of the kids in just about any group that pretty obviously stand head and shoulders about the rest.

I could provide more detail, but that’s essentially what I’m relying on.

I readily acknowledge that there are a bunch of HS star baseball players who can’t even play at a major college (insert any other endeavor). But perhaps they could play baseball at a minor college or in intramurals, and figure out a way to participate in baseball throughout their adult lives. Perhaps the way they approach baseball over their college years will make some connections or show them different ways that they can enjoy baseball in their later years, either as a vocation or avocation.

Defining success is a complex matter. As I tried to suggest above, my main desire is that my kids succeed at being happy in their adult lives, with that term defined broadly. IMO&E, one potential contributor to happiness involves doing a job you enjoy - or at least don’t hate. I’m not sure my daughter has any idea what type of work would give her enjoyment, however. And I agree that there is no need for her to have an ironclad plan at her age. However, I do feel that it is not necessary to just flail around aimlessly. You could possibly rule out some things you know you would detest, and see if you can accomplish some things along the way that will give you flexible advantages later. For example, instead of just getting a history undergrad degree, I’d suggest the possibility of getting a teacher’s certificate in history. Just one example.

Another significant factor to happiness depends on your personal lifestyle preference. If you desire a certail standard of living, well, you will want to position yourself in a career that will support that standard. OTOH, if you have little care for material things and simply want to follow your muse, great. Just realize that you are making that choice.

So, in short, absent a strong urge for something in particular, I encourage my kids to pursue paths that keep open the greatest range of options, while giving them skills and accomplishments that will be marketable in attaining some minimally comfortable standard of living.

19

My daughter is finishing up her senior year as a music performance major (oboe, bassoon, english horn). She is as compulsive about practicing as most of us are about brushing our teeth–she gets twitchy if she misses a day. She gets a practice high, like a runner’s high. Her music is the core of her being and without it she would not know who to be.

Even with that, she recognizes that music may not be her profession, just her passion. She chose to get a good liberal arts education, pursue her passion, and see how life develops. She got a great music scholarship, but rather like a football scholarship, it doesn’t mean she’ll have a career in it. And, of course, It isn’t all about getting a high paying job, after all. :slight_smile: So many of us end up working in areas that have little or nothing to do with our undergraduate degrees.

Double reed players are a breed apart. If your daughter hasn’t been to an IDRS (International Double Reed Society) convention, you should consder taking her. The last one was in Ithaca, NY; 2008 is in Utah (I think). Oboe and bassoon players come from around the world. Everything from double reed jazz quartets to classic solo performances that will break your heart. The performances are all included in your registration fee and there are an amazing number of sheet music, instrument and accessory vendors. It’s an opportunity to try a wide variety of instruments and learn what you’ll eventually want to invest in. We listen and shop til we drop and then get up and do it again the next day. It’s a great place to arrange to meet teachers from various colleges without travelling to them all.

It also gives you insight into your skill level when you hear the best of the best of the best playing on instruments of such exceptional quality that your beloved $9,000 oboe looks inadequate.

20

Hey, auw!
Where does your daughter go to school?
My kid was talking about a major convention in Indiana a year or 2 back, but I’m not sure why she didn’t end up going.
Like I said, I don’t know how much she loves her instrument, as opposed to not really knowing anything else she wants to pursue. Like I said, tho, as it’s pretty obvious to me that she is more accompliashed at bassoon than I have been at any single skill/ability in my life, I’d like her to at least consider the possibility of continuing to pursue it at least to some degree.