Question for my fellow Catholics

Great Debates
1

For this thread, I would mainly like to hear from currently practicing Catholics.
OK, I’m not a very good Catholic, one way, is that I very rarely go to Sunday mass. I only go out of a sense of obligation, and when I am in church, unless I force myself to concentrate, my thoughts are something like “I just thought of a great idea for a computer program. Wow, that girl over there is cute. Hmmm, that guy sure is balding. Oh look, a coworker. Hope this service ends soon. Oh man, after today, I have to go back to work.” And I also think about TV shows I recently watched.
So, is missing mass still a mortal sin? I mean, I can see God looking at murderers, rapists, and torturers and considering sending them to hell, but am I to really believe that after death, I’ll hear him say “I don’t know if I should let you up here, after all, you did miss some Sunday Masses.”?
So, I guess this is two questions.

  1. How bad of a Catholic am I for not wanting to go to mass, and when I’m there, being bored.
  2. Is missing Sunday mass still considered a mortal sin?
2

Hi Joel, I’m not cathlolic but I am most fascinated with the philosophy of religion. I’m an athiest discordian jew who gave up school to study in israel and lived to tell the tale. I have some pretty far-out concepts bout god which you may or may not find helpful, but i digress:

  1. Do you think that if the all powerful creator of the universe really thought it was important for you to be in a particular building at a particular time, you could possibly be somewhere else?

God is everywhere, and if your aware of this little-known fact, you will realize that churches serve but as an important reminder of his existence, nothing more.

I assure you most ppl are bored when they sit through drawn-out religous services, even the most devote theists are probably just blankly staring at their bibles whilst contemplating the football game or sex.

  1. god loves everyone, irregardless of the social-control mechanism known as sin.

Alternate solutions to your moral dilema:

Look for a different church/community that resonates with you more closely.

Look for a different god that resonates with you more closely.

Look for a different lie to tell yourself.

3

Joel,
On point number 1, I dont think its a case of you being a bad catholic if you dont go to mass - in a lot of cases, it is probarbly because of the person presiding who is doing this constantly in almsost a rote manner, that is not putting any effort into engaging the congregation before him. When and if you do experience a service that you feel very much part of and involved in, you see the way that things could and perhaps could be all the time. I think that a lot of times when you are at a service that you do not feel part of, it is almost stepping back in time to pre vatican ll days when the priest did his bit on behalf of the rest of us and the people were just the audience. That still happens a lot today, but says more about the effort put in by the priest or person organising it. What should be happening is that a community of people should be organising our liturgies and in that way hopefully reaching a lot more of us.

On point number 2, (see point number 1!). I dont think that it is a mortal sin to skip Sunday mass any more (though it is a little bit of a grey area) - even from reading the new catechism it is not spelled out clearly. In the end of the day, if you only have access to a service that makes you feel alienated, then I think the responsibility for you not going lies with the presider of this in a way. In the original gatherings for ‘mass’, there were 4 parts, gathering together as a united group, telling our story, sharing a meal and going home feeling renewed and strengthened. When you do feel this, it is wonderful, if you dont, then I would go with Logical Phallacy and find a different parish…

4

The Catholic Church teaches with regard to mortal sin the following:

[quote]
That the act of the sinner may be imputed to him it is not necessary that the object which terminates and specifies his act should be directly willed as an ends or means. It suffices that it be willed indirectly or in its cause, i.e. if the sinner foresees, at least confusedly, that it will follow from the act which he freely performs or from his omission of an act. When the cause produces a twofold effect, one of which is directly willed, the other indirectly, the effect which follows indirectly is morally imputable to the sinner when these three conditions are verified:[ul][li]first, the sinner must foresee at least confusedly the evil effects which follow on the cause he places;[/li][li]second, he must be able to refrain from placing the cause;[/li][li]third, he must be under the obligation of preventing the evil effect.[/ul][/li][/quote]
So, the answer rests with you. Do you see an evil effect resulting from your missing mass? Do you believe it offends God? Do you reject the teachings of the Church that state you should believe so?

Gotta run. We’re going to 11:00 mass at Our Lady of the Sacred Heart.:slight_smile:

5

dino, thanks. And Bob Cos, wow, that’s a little confusing, but no, I don’t see any evil effect resulting from missing mass.

6

bob cos, i agree with ** joel ** that i dont see any evil effect from missing a mass that i dont feel anything for, and am basically a passive entity - in that kind of situation it doesent matter if you are there or not.

i dont feel it offends God either - if God feels offended by anything, I feel God would be much more offended by the way in which the sacredness of mass is badly portrayed than by the way someone would consciously not attend because they felt nothing by going anyway…

I also think the church has to play its part in her own teachings about going to mass. Yes, I would love to go to an uplifting joyous ceremony with my friends, family and community each week - might even go twice a week;) , but dont think i MUST go to something that i feel nothing for because i’m supposed to go - there is enough hipocracy in the world already.:mad:

Also, I was just speaking on a down to earth level, as that is where i believe most people act in the end. You can study theology and all the books you want and see what you are supposed to do, but what you feel you should do in the end is a different matter.

7

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

So, let me answer your questions out of order:
2) The above passage speaks for itself: yes, it’s still a mortal sin.

  1. How bad a Catholic are you? It’s nobody’s place to look within the heart of another person and make a judgment as to the state of their soul. If you genuinely believe that there’s no harm in missing Mass, then it’s hard to blame you for not going. (I.e., why in the heck would I yell at an athiest for not going to Mass? There’s a foundational element missing here.) On the other hand, no one should ever presume that anyone’s soul–including one’s own–is picture perfect either. You might feel OK–that you’re a good guy, that your pangs are psychiatric “Catholic guilt”–but that’s a dangerous road to take, because it’s easy to want to justify one’s own wrongdoing.

So, my suggestion: talk to a Priest about it. I’m loathe to say “shop around” for a Priest, because in this day and age, you might be tempted to look for someone who will tell you what you want to hear. I’d say, stop over at your church when confessions are held and talk to the first one available. Describe what you’re feeling, what you’ve done, and what you haven’t.

I will clarify a few things about the Mass: Catholics understand it on many levels: it’s like a giant family gathering; it’s a figurative and literal re-creation of the Last Supper; it’s the interjection of heaven onto earth and a preview of what comes at the end of time. Masses are, in fact, held every day, although obviously, people can only attend these when convenient, and there’s no obligation unless it’s a Holy Day.

The once-a-week requirement stems from our human need to consistently reinvigorate ourselves with God’s grace and presence–to do otherwise would be like saying one can go indefinitely without water. Or, more appropriately, it might be like a wife telling her husband that she needs to see him “whenever she feels like it.” You wouldn’t expect the marriage to last too long with that attitude.

It’s human to miss mass, and it’s human for your thoughts to wander. (As a Catholic, I won’t say it’s excusable–absent some emergency, such as driving someone to the hospital–but I can say that I understand where you’re coming from.) I would, however, ask you if you know what you’re missing on Sunday. You might further investigate what the Mass is truly supposed to be–which might be hard to appreciate if the homily is boring, the singing is bad, or there’s a cute girl in front of you. If that’s the case, you might look for another parish that’s more suited to you–or you might get involved by either volunteering at the church, or at least further studying what you’re supposed to experience. If Mass IS a literal preview of heaven, after all, then skipping it on Sunday might signal to God that you want to skip it altogether.

8

Then perhaps you’re not a practicing Catholic? Not trying to be glib, but the Church teaches that missing mass is offensive to God. That, by itself, is a sinful act.

Feel free to disregard this teaching, but it’s pretty fundamental to the Catholic faith. Re: my earlier post, if you truly see nothing evil resulting from this omission, you are probably not committing a mortal sin. But, in your confusion, you’re probably not a Catholic anymore either.

Don’t worry. You can always come back.:wink:

9

ResIpsaLoquitor
I went to Mass today. It went like this:
First I was paying attention to what was being said.
Then I thought about some episodes of Will and Grace for a while.
Then I thought about getting home to work on a computer program I’m making.
As for going to another church, pretty much all Catholic churches are the same. I use to go to one, where the music played was very upbeat, and I enjoyed that, but that’s a 30 minute or over drive, too much gas to waste for good music. But besides churches being the same, most of the problem probably lies in my attitude, and in this instance, it’s something that seems nearly impossible to change (trust me, I’ve really, really tried.)
I’ll finish by saying, that Jesus made the point, that it’s not really the actions that God’s concerned about, the thought behind them. Just as killing is bad, so is hating your neighbor for no good reason. Adultery is bad, but so is lusting after somebody who’s married. The summon this morning was about how you can go through all the motions of being a Christian, but if your heart isn’t in it, it doesn’t mean anything. Logically, this applies to going to church as well. If you go, only because you’re told that you could go to hell if you don’t, you’re just going through empty motions. And to God, it’s probably just the same as if you stayed home. Showing up to Mass with the attitude that you hope it ends soon, is probably very insulting to God.
And I find it ridiculous to say that if you skip mass, God will think that you won’t want to go to heaven. God knows that I don’t want to go to hell.

10

Missing Mass is offensive to God. So going with your heart not in it isn’t. OK, guess that answers my question. Thanks.

11

Seriously–this translates as “I don’t want to go to hell, but I also want the freedom to disobey God.”

You can argue that skipping mass isn’t a sin–but that’s circumventing the original issue.

12

Those two are bad…real bad. However, you still might squeak through the Pearly Gates, if, you did not, also eat ** meat** last Friday!!!

13

** Huh?**

14

I am merely trying to point out that attendence at mass essentially about participation - just showing up isnt enough. Participation, IMHO, means being fully active and consciously involved. If I am thinking about television programmes or the cute girl in front of me, I dont think I am participating. If one is not doing this (participating) are they commiting a mortal sin too? Would this mean there are an awful lot of people who do sit in church pews with ‘mortalers’, and does that mean theres going to be a lot of people in hell…

Don’t worry. I never left. :wink:

15

Then try harder.

The problem, as you’ve stated, is that you’re going to mass but your heart isn’t in it. You feel that this is just as bad as not going at all. If you’re going to mass, but you’re not trying to get your heart into it, then I might say you have a point. But if you are trying to get your heart into it, then I’d say you’re good to go.

Increase your awareness. You’re sitting there, thinking about Will & Grace. Once you realize, “Wait a minute, I’m at mass, I shouldn’t be thinking about Will & Grace,” stop thinking about Will & Grace and focus on the miracle that is about to occur before you. You’re sitting there, thinking about the cute girl in front of you. Once you realize, “Wait a minute, I’m at mass, I shouldn’t be thinking about some cute girl,” stop thinking about the cute girl and focus on the recreation of the incredible sacrifice that was made for you.

It’s easy to get bored. It’s easy for your mind to wander. It’s easy to convince yourself that Jesus made the point, and then to think that you don’t really need to go to mass.

But when you are reminded that this man-God took upon Himself the entirety of sin, the whole breadth of human suffering, both caused and endured, because he wanted to give us redemption, it seems so selfish, so human to avoid His worship.

I re-iterate: Try harder.

16

Yeah, I guess in the eyes of Catholisism that’s the only option I have. Force myself to enjoy it.

17

Logical Phallacy, I agree with your suggestions #1 and 2. But am curious about your third suggestion. Could you elaborate a bit on it?

-LA

18

Well, that’s not quite the road to take. A marriage where one spouse simply shows up and does his job isn’t much of a marriage, because as you’ve pointed out, his heart isn’t in it. You can’t “force” someone to enjoy something. Love can’t be faked, and God can’t be fooled.

However–for lack of a better description, you do get points for effort. You’ve realized that there’s something wrong with being inattentive in Mass–at the least, it’s a form of dishonesty, and that’s certainly something we can agree is wrong. Your inattentiveness might stem from a boring church, and that’s something you can’t fix, but you do need to worry about what’s being done at your end.

Again: learn about your Catholic traditions so you can understand what you’re doing without faking it. I’ll recommend Living the Liturgy by Marilyn Gustin as a start. (I have no idea if it’s still in print. You can always ask around for books on the meaning of the Mass, or try joining a young adult group at your church and asking around.) Your sarcasm is correct–you can’t force yourself to enjoy something. However, realizing that something is wrong here, you owe it to yourself, the community, and God to figure out what that is.

19

Well thank you, and I think that there’s been said all that there is to say, so this will end this thread. Thanks again everybody for your input.

20

If you are having trouble “keeping your head in the game” just sitting there, might I suggest taking a more active part in the Eucharist Celebration? Ever thought of becoming an usher, Eucharistic Minister, Reader or joining the choir?

Maybe taking a different role in the celebration of the Mass could stimulate the effect you are looking for?