I am a fairly recent convert to Judaism, not Orthodox by a long shot but much more observant than most of the folks at my shul. I always do the seder with the same group of friends, and it bugs the heck out of me that they insist on starting well before dark because people have to work the next day, etc. This year they want to start at 5:30, which means that (since they also tend to want to skip over a lot of stuff) we will probably be done before the holiday actually starts!
So, the question isn’t whether I have some teeny OCD tendencies, I think the answer to that one is clear… I’m just wondering if this is a common practice. I know the Orthodox would never dream of starting before dark (but then, they also wouldn’t dream of working the next day), but do Reform and Conservative Jews in the US tend to be more flexible about this?
Maybe to be on the safe side I should have an extra four cups once the sun goes down… y’know, just to be sure I am properly performing the mitzvah
<anecdotal>In my father’s large, reform family, the seder started when everyone arrived and the food was close to ready. I don’t recall sundown ever playing a factor.
The Seder should not start before dark. The reason for this is that there is a commandment to drink four cups of wine on the night of the Seder and that commandment can only be fulfilled once it is actually Passover (which only begins once it is dark). Since the first cup is drunk right away at the beginning of the seder (with kiddush), the seder should begin after dark.
Furthermore, this year the first day of Passover is a Sunday, which means that the first seder is Saturday night. When this happens, the ritual of Havdallah is incorporated into the kiddush (at the start of the seder). One cannot recite havdallah (which formally recognizes that the Sabbath has ended) while it is still the Sabbath.
(I know you asked for a non-Orthodox perspective, but I thought I’d throw it in anyway…)
In Mr. Neville’s family (I converted, so there’s no tradition on my side), seder timing is more a function of what’s convenient for the guests than of when sunset is. The food is all prepared in advance so nobody has to be running in and out during the seder.
One year, the timing also had to do with the Carolina basketball game that night, but given that Carolina basketball is a religion in and of itself there (they live in NC, and Mr. Neville’s two brothers both went to Carolina)…
We’re all Conservative, by the way, and fairly observant for Conservative (we keep kosher).
Thanks, Zev, I was familiar with the traditional view. But if the crucial thing is drinking the four cups when it is actually Passover, does that mean that the wise-ass suggestion I made at the end of the OP might actually be viewed as legitimate? I know that the matzah and maror are also considered mitzvot, and I believe that the recitation of Hallel is as well, right? If I were to do these things outside the context of the full seder, would I get “partial credit”? And while I have your attention, another thing I’ve wondered about: I am my non-Jewish mother’s firstborn son. Does my convert status affect my obligation to observe the fast of the firstborn?
Don’t forget telling the story of the Exodus, which (to me) is the main purpose of the evening, and a mitzva in it’s own right!
I think that whether a convert first-born son should fast before Passover (this year, the fast is on Thursday, because we don’t fast on the Sabbath, which is erev Pesach this year, and don’t push fasts backwards onto a Friday, either) is a machloket, a rabbinical controversy. What I have heard is that such people are advised to try to get to a seder mitzva (some sort of meal celebrating a mitzva, generally a siyum (celebrating completing a particular piece of Jewish learning) but also a brit mila, among other things), as many regular first-borns do, because participating in one exempts you from observing that particular fast, letting you sidestep the whole issue.
It is important, because when there used to be an actual Passover lamb sacrifice, it had to be eaten before midnight, anything left over from the animal after midnight had to be destroyed by burning rather than eaten. And the modern Seder is, in large part, to preserve the memory and traditions of the Temple-era services. So the midnight time limit (and in this context, midnight doesn’t mean 12 AM on the clock, it means the actual midpoint between sunset and sunrise) has significance.
However, in modern times, if the Afikomen (for non-Jews, that’s a piece of Matzah that serves as a stand-in for the sacrificial lamb nowadays) is not eaten by midnight, the remaining Matzo need not be destroyed,
yes, it is very important the end your Seder BEFORE midnight–well before midnight. Because if it drags on that long, it gets really, really, really, really tedious. The children will hate you, and even the dog gets impatient.
The whole point of a Seder is to enjoy the holiday with your family. Tell the historical story of the Exodus, tell the story of your own family’s history, drink a little wine, tell some funny stories about previous Seders, sing a few songs, debate the perfect recipe for matzah balls, and enjoy that happy, warm glow that makes you glad you did it all.
I’m just wondering if this is a common practice. I know the Orthodox would never dream of starting before dark (but then, they also wouldn’t dream of working the next day), but do Reform and Conservative Jews in the US tend to be more flexible about this?