Question for people who know some music theory

Cafe Society
1

Hi,

I have been experimenting with a (very basic) music composition program, to see if I can’t ultimately realize one of my songs that way. It’s been quite awhile since theory class.

Here is a short sample.

What I want to know is, what time is this piece in? Is it 3/4? And, if you are beating time, one and two and three and, etc. — where are the beats? Are they on the upbeat, downbeat, or what?

I should note that there are two parts (yes, verse & refrain.) The time is slightly different in each, or maybe it’s the accent.

I can’t really teach it to anybody if I don’t know how to talk about it – please help. Thanks.

Okay, I know it’s a little ragged. It’s just dashed off to give you the idea.

2

well, the A section just sounds like a slightly ragged clave beat. Also known as the Bo Diddley beat. So I’d call that section a syncopated 4/4 groove.

The B section could be notated a couple of ways, but I would lean towards a syncopated triplet pulse in 2/4.

3

Moving to Cafe Society.

Colibri
General Questions Moderator

4

Thamks, picker.

5

I’m hearing it all in 4/4.
I don’t know anything about music comp programs, but maybe this will help.

If I was counting it off to someone, I would count the first part as

“ONE two AND THREE four AND ONE two AND THREE four”, etc.
(Accents on the UPPERCASE words)

and the second part as

“kick two and kick four and kick two and kick four and”, etc.

Try saying that, one word per beat, and see if it fits. It’s not exactly the same as what you’ve recorded, but it’s pretty close. (Or rather, it’s close to what I think you’re going for.)

6

Did you play it or enter it in note by note? I ask because around nine seconds til the end of the A section, the rhythm seems to get lost, and I’m not sure if this is on purpose or not. In any case, from the beginning of the B section onwards everything’s okay.

Assuming there’s not supposed to be the odd variation on the rhythm I’m hearing during the second half of section A–in other words, assuming there’s just an A and a B section, here’s how I’d notate it:

dotted eighth, dotted eighth, eighth

over and over again

And I’d notate it either 2/4 or 4/4 depending on what’s happening over those drums.

As far as I can tell both the A and B sections have the same rhythm, just different instruments hitting the notes.

-Kris

7

Well, I guess I’m thinking equal-stress triplets in the first (verse) section ( bup-bup-bup bup-bup-bup); and BOOM bah bah BOOM bah bah in the second (refrain) part. Think traditional belly-dancing music. Dumbeks and finger cymbals and those cool bowed stringed instruments they have; along with maybe some George Martin-esque Within You, Without You type strings. Halftones and all.

So tell me, if you’re playing triplets, and each triplet constitutes one beat of a measure of which measures there are ten per cycle, then you’re in four, right?
Frylock, what happens at the end of the first (verse) section is, it goes,

bup-bup-bup bup-bup-bup bup-bup BOOM-BOOM

This is a full stop followed by a rest.
I feel so stupid having to use nonsense syllables, and I can hear the whole grandiose arrangement in my head. I wrote it years ago and I’ve always wanted to get a bunch of Middle Eastern musicians and a kettledrum together, and hear it for real.

8

[QUOTE=Frylock]
…here’s how I’d notate it:

dotted eighth, dotted eighth, eighth

over and over again

And I’d notate it either 2/4 or 4/4 depending on what’s happening over those drums.

As far as I can tell both the A and B sections have the same rhythm, just different instruments hitting the notes.

-Kris
[/QUOTE]

I agree. I was trying to simplify it and avoid the 1e&a2e&a counting necessary for the dotted eighths. I still haven’t found an easy way to actually write out parts (like 64th notes and such) on this board.

[QUOTE=brujaja]
…So tell me, if you’re playing triplets, and each triplet constitutes one beat of a measure of which measures there are ten per cycle, then you’re in four, right?..
[/QUOTE]

I’m not sure whether I’m misunderstanding you, or if you don’t grasp the nomenclature of time signatures? Forgive me if you already know this, but the top number signifies the number of beats in a measure. The bottom indicates which kind of note gets one beat in that measure. So three triplet(ed) eighth notes in a measure (adding up to one beat as per your example) would imply you have ten bars of 1/4 time. (A triplet is three notes (quarter notes, half notes, whatever) played in the same duration as two (same) notes not tied into a triplet.)

So, with your ten beats per cycle, I think you are writing a time signature of 10/4 and only writing one measure. It could be broken into two bars of 5/4, five bars of 2/4, or some other combination based on what the rest of the music needs. All these time signatures are based on you writing the triplets as eighth notes.

All that being said, when you ask “..then your in four, right?” well probably not, but only because the question implies 4/4 (AKA C or “common time”) and while it’s possible to write a ten beat cycle in 4/4, it would be really unusual* unless you have a two beat rest in each phrase.
*and really awkward.

A lot of Indian music, ragas and such are written in combinations adding up to seventeen, so what you’re into is not necessarily weird or even unusual.

I hope this isn’t too confusing, I should have been in bed an hour ago (at least).

9

I don’t think there are any triplets in this thing.

I’ve listened to this thing many, many, way too many times, and I’ve even written (in Noteworthy Composer) something that sounds exactly the same (w/out the variation from the ninth second to the end of the A section) to make sure about my notation. And I can’t see how there are any triplets in this piece at all.

I do notate music fairly regularly, but only as part of a low-priority hobby of music composition. There are probably bona fide experts in score notation here who can explain to me where the triplets are supposed to be.

-FrL-

10

[QUOTE=DfrntBreign]
I agree. I was trying to simplify it and avoid the 1e&a2e&a counting necessary for the dotted eighths. I still haven’t found an easy way to actually write out parts (like 64th notes and such) on this board.
[/quote]

Yeah, you could do it as quarter notes and dotted quarter notes, with a very fast tempo. If I’m reading your previous post right, that’s what you were doing, basically, right?

I used eighths because it just seemed natural–it puts quarter notes near the 120 per minute mark, for example–and also because I don’t know anything about this “counting beats” stuff you guys are talking about :slight_smile: so I didn’t realize it would complicate things to use the eighth notes.

Ultimately, I think the choice between eighth and quarter notes here is arbitrary–you could write it either way and have it come out sounding exactly the same. The choice between 2/4 and 4/4 is also somewhat arbitrary, though I think people usually make the distinction based on how the phraseology in the music goes. We don’t have enough of a sample of the music to make that decision here.

-FrL-

11

Just to clarify the way I was envisioning the B section: it really is just like the first half of the A section. Chop the 4/4 down to 2/4 and notate the 3 notes as either a loose triplet (that’s how I would notate it on a head chart) or as a dotted 8th rhythm

It’s not a true triplet, but it’s so close I wouldn’t sweat it. You run across this a lot trying to notate world rhythms in western notation. Yes, the beat lags a bit, but you can either go nuts figuring the exact subdivision on 32nd or 64th notes, or call it a loose triplet and let the collective musicians find their interpretation in the performance. If you’re working with good players, they’ll get it.

12

FWIW I hear it as 6/8 personally.

13

Does this seem like a faithful reproduction?

-Kris

14

[QUOTE=Frylock]
Does this seem like a faithful reproduction?

-Kris
[/QUOTE]

Can a non OP-er bump a thread?

-FrL-