One more thing about the gas chamber at Auschwitz, as noted one of the doors into the gas chamber is a typical wooden office door with a large plate glass window. This gas chamber is part of the camp tour and is shown to thousands of visitors every year. That is, people are led into the room, the purpose of the room explained, and it is claimed that prisoners were gassed in the room, and apparently no one objects, saying something like ‘Why wouldn’t the prisoners break down the door?’ or ‘Why wouldn’t the prisoners break the glass?’, or ‘What about the cyanide gas leaking to the outside?’. To me this is truly incredible, and shows either a) the complete gullibility of the human animal, or b) the power a voice of authority to say next to anything and have it be believed, or both. One fellow, who maintains the scrapbookpages.com web site which has lots of information on the holocaust, he visits the camps, takes notes, takes lots of photos, and posts it all on his site, did question a guide as follows …
When I asked the guide how the victims were prevented from breaking the glass in this door, she said that an SS man stood outside, ready to shoot anyone who attempted to escape from the gas chamber.
Onward - the documents. As noted the Nazis were meticulous record keepers and at least at Auschwitz wrote a death certificate for each registered prisoner that died and listed the deaths in death books … see an Auschwitz museum discussion of the records and a copy of one death certificate here …
These records were captured by the Soviets and hidden for 40 years and revealed following glasnost. The records for the camps captured by the Allies are still unavailable to the public as far as I know, they are stored in the Bad Arolsen archives.
Next: testimony
It’s not conflicting accounts. Wiesel may have said something unsupported, but this has nothing to do with the research and data collected by a myriad of other researchers, journalists, and historians, which agree that between 5 and 6 million Jews were killed by the Nazis, and several million non-Jews were killed by the Nazis.
I remember my Dad and I visiting the “Gettysburg Battlefield.” In one of the visitor’s centers was a rifle, allegedly from the battle, that I could see, with some examination, couldn’t actually have been from the supposed battle.
Asked and answered: Nazis destroyed records and graves and camps.
Asked and answered: Records are available to the public since at least 2008.
So you are not here to debate nor are you going to state your position in clear and concise sentences using your own words. Your soul intent, it seems, is to witness for the apologists and revisionists. Is that correct?
Ok, Wiesenthal. My point still stands- you are wrong. There is no conflict, there are mountains of research, and the fact that one person may have made something up does nothing to discount the overwhelming evidence.
That is a door recovered from the scrap heap at Birkenau. THIS is what the original doors looked like. wood reinforced with iron. An iron weave on a the sight glass to prevent prisoners from breaking the glass in the sight hole.
And then the Soviets reconstructed it in their typical Soviet style “Hey, a door’s a door.”
Gack has already gone back to the door thing, when it was easily demonstrated that the wooden door wasn’t the actual gas chamber door.
It’s amazing how much this sort of thing has in common with Creationism- grab onto one small aspect, like the evolution of the eye or a supposed impossible gas chamber door, and stick to it. And, just like the Creationists, they’re totally wrong on the science anyway- the eye evolved, there’s plenty of evidence for it; that gas chamber door was not the actual door, and there is tons of other evidence for the gas chambers anyway.
I’m here to debate any point, but there reaches a point where unless there is new info to be discussed, it’s time to move to a new topic. At the start I wanted to control the topics as let’s say, I’m outnumbered, and didn’t want to deal with getting yanked 10 ways at the same time. But now I’ve pretty much made my case, so, yank away. I will get to the testimony at some point.
One caveat, I’m hear to debate any point if I know anything about it or have an opinion about it. If I don’t know nuthin, I’ll probably do some google type research, but may come up short.
For example if the Nazi records for Belsen are available, give me a link. We both know that the Bad Arolsen archives are ‘open to the public’, but what are the details, what does that really mean?
You’ve failed utterly, by the way. You’ve presented nothing new and nothing that hasn’t been debunked a dozen times over. You’ve basically spewed the party line of pseudo-scientific and pseudo-historical sites like the IHR while pretending to be all contemplative and thoughtful. Those guys are charlatans and liars, and have been proven to be so time and time again- every time their faulty “research” is exposed they just move onto another topic… “yeah, so maybe we messed up on the gas chamber door, but look- bodies can’t burn like that!”. Pathetic and even laughable, if it didn’t cause so much pain to those who already suffered so much.
Here is what Bad Arolsen has online. However, there are a HUGE amount of records and they simply don’t have the man power to put them all online. They have concentrated on the resources needed to fulfill family requests.
The door in the movie is from Krema 5. The intact gas chamber is in Krema 1.
There is a whole labyrinth of argument about what is the real door in Krema 1 and what isn’t, and what is the real wall and what isn’t, etc., this all followed Cole’s revelation that the gas chamber was a reconstruction. The original plans for Krema 1 are available and included in a book by … can’t remember the name … then the Nazi plans for converting the crematorium into an air raid shelter have also been found, there is all sorts of data that gets thrown into this ‘debate’.
But we don’t need to concern ourselves with that. The point, confirmed in a previous post by renowned holocaust scholar R J Van Pelt, is that the gas chamber just as it is today was presented to the public for 50 years as a functioning gas chamber in its found state.
If you want to claim to be debating then at some point you have to state a position beyond your initial claim. Instead you seem to be weaseling from one topic to another in the hopes of looking like you are smart when in fact you are obviously going down the IHR checklist of long debunked points they still try to use on the gullible.
There reaches a point where you have to say ‘Maybe my initial claims are not as solid as I though’. Sometimes the evidence presented does not bring you to that point, but in this thread it should have done so over and over. That makes you look closed minded and only wanting to spew neo-Nazi crap.
I read somewhere, but can’t document now, that they have 400 persons on staff. That seems like enough to me. And even if the actual records are not online, how about a summary, like the summaries of the Auschwitz records that are available.
The door in the movies was assumed to come from V. It was found in a scrap heap. I was showing you what it would have looked like since you keep harping on the fact that office doors were hanging there.
As was said, the Soviets rebuilt something and weren’t exacting about it’s authenticity. That doesn’t mean the original structure never existed, and it also doesn’t mean that this somehow proves that people didn’t die.