The photos are from Belsen, if you watch the British documentary (link given in my first post) made from footage taken when they entered the camp you will see the familiar stacks of emaciated bodies, and the bulldozers pushing the bodies into mass graves. And we know from the USHMM in effect (linked first post) that 35,000 died of typhus at Belsen at the end of the war. The photos linked earlier show that there were many ostensibly healthy and well fed prisoners at Belsen at the end of the war.
The US sent a team of forensic pathologists into the camps following the war and they made 100s of autopsies, the team was headed by Charles Larson. I’ve googled for a few minutes trying to find Larson’s results … I could not find a link to Larson’s findings or even a summary of his findings but did find some info …
http://www.scrapbookpages.com/DachauScrapbook/DachauLiberation/KauferingIVLiberation.html
*Dr. Charles P. Larson, a US Army doctor, examined 258 bodies at the Kaufering IV camp (near Dachau - g) and reported that 189 had probably died of typhus or starvation, while 86 had apparently been burned to death, 11 had been shot inside the camp and 17 more had been gunned down outside the camp. Dr. Larson also did autopsies on some of the bodies at the Dachau main camp and determined that none had died from poison gas.
*
*Perhaps the most authoritative statement of the facts as to typhus and mortality in the camps has been made by Dr. John E. Gordon, M.D., Ph.D., a professor of preventive medicine and epidemiology at the Harvard University School of Public Health, who was with US forces in Germany in 1945.
Dr. Gordon reported in 1948 that,
“The outbreaks in concentration camps and prisons made up the great bulk of typhus infection encountered in Germany.”
Dr. Gordon summarized the causes for the outbreaks as follows:
Germany in the spring months of April and May [1945] was an astounding sight, a mixture of humanity travelling this way and that, homeless, often hungry and carrying typhus with them …
Germany was in chaos. The destruction of whole cities and the path left by advancing armies produced a disruption of living conditions contributing to the spread of the disease. Sanitation was low grade, public utilities were seriously disrupted, food supply and food distribution was poor, housing was inadequate and order and discipline were everywhere lacking. Still more important, a shifting of populations was occurring such as few countries and few times have experienced.
Dr. Gordon’s findings are corroborated by Dr. Russell Barton, today a psychiatrist of international repute, who entered Bergen-Belsen with British forces as a young medical student in 1945. Barton, who volunteered to care for the diseased survivors, testified under sworn oath in a Toronto courtroom in 1985 that,
“Thousands of prisoners who died at the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp during World War II weren’t deliberately starved to death but died from a rash of diseases.”
Dr. Barton further testified that on entering the camp he had credited stories of deliberate starvation but decided such stories were untrue after inspecting the well equipped kitchens and the meticulously maintained ledgers, dating back to 1942, of food cooked and dispensed each day.*
I don’t even understand why you would bring this up. Do you think this supports your position? It flat-out states that large number of people had been starved, shot, or burned to death in a Nazi-controlled camp! The fact that none of them died from gassing is totally irrelevant; the Nazis murdered every single one of these people.
Can you now admit that the Nazis knowingly murdered people within these camps?
You are playing “let’s switch the goalposts” once again. (Actually, you are playing “let’s go play on a different field, altogether and pretend that we are still in the same game.”)
As you well know, Belsen was not an extermination camp. I have already pointed out that Dachau was not an extermination camp. Making a big deal that no gassings occurred at camps that were not established to gas people makes your points nothing but nonsense and you are moving further into the realm of “troll” in staff discussions by presenting such nonsense.
You have quoted several doctors reporting on conditions in Germany, deliberately(?) ignoring the fact that all of the extermination camps were established in countries outside of Germany.
Are you seriously trying to make a point? Or are you simply trying to throw enough shit at a wall in the hope that it sticks?
If this behavior, that I cannot view as honest, continues, neither will your posting.
No response from Gack on my stipulation that he’d be better off sending this information to people who actually are studied in the subject, so I’ll repeat my conclusion:
The conditions in Andersonville POW camp at the end of the US civil war were not unlike the conditions at Belsen at the end of WW II. The photo linked is one of the Andersonville prisoners …
Many prisoners had died of a panoply of diseases brought on by conditions in the camp. The camp direction, H. Wirz, was charged with deliberately killing the prisoners and tried in a hoax trial and executed !
The Wirz trial is often cited as the first war crimes trial, which is appropriate. Wirz had done everything he could to prevent the tradgedy at Andersonville, but he was tried in a hoax trial, convicted and hung. The exact same fate of the Belsen commandant, J. Kramer.
And you’re still ignoring the question. The big issue isn’t Belson or Dachau or Theresienstadt. The big issue is the main extermination camps: Auschwitz, Belzec, Chelmno, Majdanek, Sobibor, and Treblinka.
Do you know how many times I have seen SB2C Helldivers in films demosntrating the battle of Midway? Do you know how often I have seen pictures of Spanish Bf-109s (with Hispano-Suisa engines in place of Daimler-Benz engines) in films about WWII? Do you know how often I see warships that only served in the Atlantic or Pacific spliced into films describing events in the other ocean? A great many posts ago I pointed out why your objections to such “erroneous” film clips are meaningless in a discussion regarding the reality of the Holocaust.
Yet you persist in trying to make some sort of point with this big “revelation,” (and then go on to make further errors in your arguments).
The films are not used as evidence of the Holocaust. They are used as depictions of the horrors that occurred under the Nazi regime in films that discuss the Holocaust. The evidence is presented by historians who have seriously studied the events and drawn serious conclusions regarding what events occurred.
The point is that Hitler & Co created such conditions in multiple camps, ghettos, killing fields and mobile killing factories around Europe in an effort to exterminate 12 million people. Belsen is not the only camp and possibly not the worst of them. But it’s still a camp for the internment of people and it’s still a place where thousands died because of the conditions created by the Nazis. How they died seems less important than the fact that they were sent there to die and you have not been able to show evidence to the contrary.
We’re all still waiting for you to answer this simple question:
Why did Hitler want Jews out of Germany and Europe?
Let’s consider Auschwitz - I discussed the Soviet documents for prisoner deaths at Auschiwtz in more than one post.
Now, according to the Auschwitz state musuem, in a page I linked earlier, when Jewish prisoners were brought to Auschwitz they were categorized as fit for work and registered into the camp, or unfit for work and sent directly to the gas chambers, and hence don’t appear in the documents.
What evidence do you have for that?
I believe that the only evidence is testimony, and I’ve introduced and discussed the testimony of holocaust survivors at some length.
If there is physical or documentary or photographic evidence, let’s see it.
If there is particular testimony you’d like to examine, let’s do it.
I believe an earlier post stated there’s 16 miles of evidence. Don’t tell me you haven’t seen any of it. How can testimony be more reliable than physical evidence?
Leaving aside the fact that the phrase “not unlike” is a really vague phrase that can mean lots of different things, if bringing up Andersonville isn’t further shifting of the goalposts I don’t know what is.
What’s next, are we going to bring up the War of the Roses?
