Questions about Hitler and Nazi Germany's attempted extermination of Europe's Jews

Great Debates
581

You got that right. Consider …

In the holocaust the Nazis killed Jews in great numbers, on an average 10000, every day in the death camps, Auschwitz being a good example.

On the other hand, according to the revisionists killing of a Jew or any other prisoner, by any member of the camp staff all the way up to the camp commandant, was investigated and if wrongdoing was discovered the perpetrator was put on trial, and in two cases executed.

We have discussed the problems with the evidence or lack of same for the holocaust version. What about the evidence for the revisionist version?

The evidence for the revisionist account is the career of ‘the bloodhound judge’ Konrad Morgan who was appointed by the Nazis to prosecute crime in the camps. He conducted over 800 investigations, and put two camp commandants on trial.

A few excerpts from the wiki article on Morgan

Morgen went on to prosecute so many Nazi officers for individual violations that by April 1944, Himmler personally ordered him to restrain his cases.

Nonetheless, he went on to investigate Auschwitz camp commandant Rudolf Höss on charges of having “unlawful relations” with a Jewish woman prisoner, Eleanor Hodys; Höss was, for a time, removed from his command and these proceedings

Karl-Otto Koch – Commandant of Buchenwald and Majdanek – executed for the murder of two hospital orderlies who had treated him for syphilis

Hermann Florstedt – Commandant of Majdanek – executed for murder

In the process of investigating Koch Morgan stayed at Buchenwald for several months, and investigators interviews staff and prisoners. There were rumors that Koch’s wife, Illse Koch, collected tattooed skin from the prisoners, shrunken heads, etc., which Morgan also investigated and found to be baseless. He was tortured to testify otherwise at Nuremberg and refused.

Note: the wiki article has an account of Morgan witnessing the ‘Harvest Festival’ massacre which is demonstrably false. It also says that the holocaust was off limits for Morgan, but in fact it was exactly the people accused of directing the holocaust that were investigated by Morgan. He testified regarding the holocaust at Nuremberg.

Morgan is a subject in himself, so there is more to the story.

582

Not surprisingly, none of this is actually any evidence that the Nazis did not plan and attempt to kill all the Jews of Europe, and succeed in killing 5-6 million Jews.

You’ve pointedly ignored statements by Himmler and Hitler that refer explicitly to the elimination of Europe’s Jews.

583

I discussed the Wannsee minutes in detail. I discussed the Himmler quote in detail. One was enough.

584

[QUOTE=Gack]
The US had broken the Nazi codes and intercepted many communications, yet there is no record of anyone discussing the exterminating the Jews even in secret conversations.
[/QUOTE]

But if you ignore the speeches where the Nazis openly call for the extermination of Jews*, then there’s really little evidence that they discussed it.

Similarly, if you ignore teeth and bone fragments seeping up from mass graves and the like, there’s very little physical evidence.

*Another of those hard-to-interpret quotes: “On 16th December, 1941, [Hans] Frank told the Cabinet of the Governor General [of occupied Poland]: ‘We must annihilate the Jews wherever we find them and wherever it is possible, in order to maintain there the structure of Reich as a whole.’”

(The Avalon Project : Judgment : Frank)

585

So now your best defense is “I don’t want to talk about it?”

586

That is not Nuremberg testimony. In fact Frank testified that he heard rumors of Jews being executed in Auschwitz and took the matter up explicitly with Hitler …

this is Nuremberg testimony …

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/04-18-46.asp

*I asked Heinrich Himmler for this special permission. He said that he would urge me not to go to the camp. Again some time passed. On 7 February 1944 I succeeded in being received by Adolf Hitler personally-I might add that throughout the war he received me three times only. In the presence of Bormann I put the question to him: “My Fuehrer, rumors about the extermination of the Jews will not be silenced. They are heard everywhere. No one is allowed in anywhere. Once I paid a surprise visit to Auschwitz in order to see the camp, but I was told that there was an epidemic in the camp and my car was diverted before I got there. Tell me, My Fuehrer, is there anything in it?” The Fuehrer said, “You can very well imagine that there are executions going on-of insurgents. Apart from that I do not know anything. Why don’t you speak to Heinrich Himmler about it?” And I said. “Well, Himmler made a speech to us in Krakow and declared in front of all the people whom I had officiallycalled to the meeting that these rumors about the systematic extermination of the Jews were false; the Jews were merely being brought to the East.” Thereupon the Fuehrer said, “Then you must believe that.”
*

587

Which is nonsense.

Morgen investigated corruption within the SS, which was bountiful.

Rassenschande

Koch ordered two orderlies killed on false pretenses to cover up the fact that he had syphilis, and was also embezzling property taken from prisoners. He wasn’t prosecuted for mass murder of Jews.

Florstedt:

Florstedt was executed for corruption; the murders were of witnesses to his crimes of stealing from the Reich.

It’s amusing that you’d use Morgen as evidence that the Holocaust never happened, when he was quite vocal that it had.

588

This Georg Konrad Morgen?

The man who:

Yet found it offensive when:

You continue to add insult to injury, Gack. It’s nearly impossible to figure out what exactly you’re trying to say anymore. More importantly, it’s clear that you consider the people participating and following this discussion lack even the most basic mental acuity and comprehension skills. You may find it interesting to torture words to support your own desired conclusions, but do not insult the rest of us by insisting we lack intelligence and do not see through your pathetic attempt to twist facts.

589

No, my defense is that I already talked about it.

The presumption in all these quotes is that the Nazis were unrestrained killers who had no qualms about killing Jews in masse, men, women and children.

Well, is that the reality? That leads to Morgan, who I am familiar with. Morgan’s career is in direct contradiction to the idea that the Nazis were uncontrolled criminals. In fact they prosecuted any SS member all the way up to commandant for crimes committed in the camps, including killing a single prisoner. That is my response to the speeches.

590

Whatever Morgan found about some Nazis, there is plenty of evidence for other Nazis that they did in fact kill lots and lots of Jewish men, women, and children. The presumption from these quotes is that Himmler planned to kill all the Jews- which he explicitly said.

591

Basically Gack is saying “see, some Nazis weren’t monsters, therefore no Holocaust!”.

Does not compute.

592

No you didn’t. You used selective editing to try to represent the quotes as meaning something that they didn’t. That’s not remotely “enough”.

Wait - that’s your evidence for your case? If you read the full testimony, Frank makes it clear that he’s heard the rumors of mass exterminations, smelled the “stench” of the camps", saw giant trenches being dug but was not allowed by Hitler or Himmler to actually check whether the rumors were true. That’s not only not proof it didn’t happen, it’s pretty good additional circumstantial evidence that it did.

593

This is the problem, you can jump all over the place.

Morgan is a fascinating case, and he testified to some incredible stuff at Nuremberg, so incredible that it can’t be believed, here is just on example … a Jewish wedding party at a death camp (Majdanek) …

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/08-07-46.asp

*MORGEN: One day I received a report from the commander of the Security Police in Lublin. He reported that in a Jewish labor camp in his district a Jewish wedding had taken place. There had been 1,100 invited guests at this wedding

HERR PELCKMANN: Go on witness, a little faster.

MORGEN: As I said before, 1,100 guests participated in this Jewish wedding. What followed was described as quite extraordinary owing to the gluttonous consumption of food and alcoholic drinks. Among these Jews were members of the camp guard, that is to say some SS men, who joined in this revelry. This report only came into my hands in a roundabout way, some months later, due to the fact that the Commander of the Security Police suspected that the circumstances indicated that some criminal acts had occurred. This was my impression as well, and I thought that this report would give me a clue to another big case of criminal corruption*

Continue reading, it gets better from there. Morgan is a subject in himself.

594

If you wish to be charitable, you can believe Morgen’s explanation, from the Auschwitz Trial:

Bolding mine.

595

They prosecuted SS members who were stealing from the Reich for their own personal gain, or otherwise breaking the law of the Reich (such as Rassenschande). Do you not grasp that?

596

Frank testified that he asked Hitler if the Jews were being exterminated at Auschwitz. Hitler said ‘No, take it up with Himmler’. Frank said that Himmler had just given a speech saying that the rumors were false and the Jews were being transferred east.

Yeah, that’s my evidence.

597

Let’s stick to trial testimony, OK?

In fact Morgan testified that the holocaust at Auschwitz was confined to the Monowitz camp, this is a camp built by Farben specifically to house workers at the rubber plant.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/08-08-46.asp

MORGEN: By extermination camps I mean those which were established exclusively for the extermination of human beings with the use of technical means, such as gas.

THE PRESIDENT: Which were they?

MORGEN: Yesterday I described the four camps of the Kriminalkommissar Wirth and referred to the Camp Auschwitz. By “Extermination Camp Auschwitz” I did not mean the concentration camp. It did not exist there. I meant a separate extermination camp near Auschwitz, called “Monowitz.”

THE PRESIDENT: What were the other ones?

MORGEN: I do not know of any other extermination camps.*

598

Why, exactly, can that not be believed? Do you dispute that Kapos existed?

599

Then your evidence seems to be that you think Hitler was a stand-up guy who wouldn’t tell a fib. And most of us have a different view of Hitler.

600

I don’t know what point you think you’re making here.