I don’t usually spend time here during the working day, but questions arise and, well, we’re living in interesting times.
I’ve not been much of a student of Islam, but I’ve seen many stories over the years that attest that killing of innocents, suicide and taking of hostages are eschewed by the Koran. You wouldn’t necessarily pick that up following the activities of various individuals who’ve been identified as Islamic fundamentalists over the years. And I’m aware that there are different flavors of Islam.
But I’m largely ignorant of Islam. So, what’s the scoop on that? Are the above described activities not sanctioned, or what?
first of all, a lot of people in the middle-east think that america is evil. and think about it, we’re a predominantly pseudo-christian or non-religious country, and to someone of another strong faith, that is evil. second, the principle of islam is to spread the faith by any means, by force if necessary. these terrorists believe they are doing God’s work. this is why they are willing to die for their cause. for a brief history of islam, check out this site. furthermore, this is not what all muslims believe. this is only a sect of islam which allows such grievous acts.
I am no expert on the Islamic faith, but I heard an interesting comment on CNN yesterday regarding this. Tom Clancy pointed out that the Islamic faith forbids suicide, and the people who commit these acts in the name of Islam are no different than the Catholic/Protestants in Northern Ireland who commit unspeakable, un-Christian, acts of violence.
I don’t know if Clancy is an expert on Islam or not, but I thought his point was well made. An honorable faith should not be disparaged because of the acts of savages who invoke its name.
i believe tom was misspoken in that most sects of islam forbid suicide, not all. this sort of practice goes all the way back to the crusades, when catholics killed “barbarians” in the name of God when they would not accept the faith. there are sects of christianity and catholicism here in the U.S. which allow suicide, but they are small and almost never heard of. there is always some sect of every religion that believes in anything.
From what I understand of Islam, Mohammed would not be too pleased with what has been done in the name of Allah. Mohammed, when he was alive, showed a great deal of respect to Jews, Christians and even Zoroastrians.
It is very pity that in Western countries the opinion about Islam is coined by terrorist fanatics. In fact, the Islam religion (I myself am atheist, but Islam culture fascinates me) is a very tolerant one; take a look into the Qur’an and you’ll see that. Islam is especially respectful towards Jews and Christians which are explicitly mentioned in the Qur’an as standing under God’s protection and faithful followers of God. The things islamic terrorits do is not at all in the slightest way tolerated or even demanded by the Islam as religion, and the majority of the believers cannot feel support for the suicide bombers.
The Northern Ireland comparison is a very good one IMO; an islamic viewer can easily get the impression of Christianity demanding for killing, especially if (as in teh Islam case) Western media never report about that religion except for stories about terror and warfare.
Essentially, yes, Islam abhors the killing or persecution of innocents. Note that as with all religions, one can find ( or manufacture ) loopholes to justify abhorrent behavior if you’re willing to twist the words enough. So in that other thread I mentioned Osama bin Laden using the argument that the U.S. supports Israel that “drives muslims from their homes” ( see linked page above ) and U.S. civilians support the U.S. govt. by paying taxes, thus making them legitimate targets.
But he’s a fucking nutjob. Most Muslims wouldn’t have such a perverse take on the situation.
And i agree with Tansu - The Taliban are piss-poor exemplars of Islam.
let me clarify…the problem here is ignorance. virtually no religion allows suicide or homicide, but people often don’t know that. these alleged “muslims” were not true to their faith, but my guess is that they believed they were. so technically, these people were not followers of islam, but they said they were, reinventing their own religion for their greedy purposes.
I am not an expert on the Quran, but the sections I’ve
read are standard religous text: follow-all-these-rules passages, long-sleep-inducing-passages, just-be-nice-to-people-passages.
The Crusades and the Inquisition were were done in the name of a teacher who preached love, forgiveness and understanding. Some groups of Orthodox Jews attack other sects for attempting to pray at the Western Wall. Despite the fact that each page of Talmud has 5 different interpretations by great sages, these Jews have decided that they and only they are real Jews. Mohammed calls the Jews and Christians "people of the book". He was upset that they did not accept his teachings, but the killing of unarmed bystanders was NOT part of his teachings. In general, Muslims living peacefully and following the Quran as it is written don't make the news. Terrorist and Fundies do.
PBS aired a marvelous documentary on the pilgrimage to Mecca. One man said that he wished the whole world was Muslim. He said nothing of infidels or the Great Satan. His sincere belief was that Islam would teach the nations of the world to love one another and live as brothers. But that soundbite seems unlikely to lead the news.
This is not on-topic, but I feel the need to respond:
The “Western Wall Attack” that I believe you are refering to never happened. It was first reported in the November 15, 1994, issue of the Arizona State University daily paper. A retraction was printed on November 29, 1994 after the 24-year-old senior journalism major who had penned the piece admitted that the entire account, from start to finish, had been the product of her own fertile imagination.
Unfortunately, many other papers picked up on the story before it was retracted.
The Principles of Islam wind up saying to love everyone like you would love yourself. Islam is a religion of Peace and love for the all people on the planet.
The tenets of Islam are beautiful to read.
In societies you have good and bad elements that is everywhere and in Islam they are called extremists, etc. There are terrorists abroad and terrorists like Timothy McVeigh right here.
Some of the people in the Mid East hate America, and consider it the GReat Shaitan! We are Infidels. All of the Islamic people do not agree with these and are very good and peaceful people and they are the real true Muslims who believe in the Real True Islam which stands for Peace, Love, for all people.
First of all, Orthodox Jews do not consider non-Orthodox to now be Jews. We don’t think that what they’re practicing is proper Judaism, but they are absolutely included in the category of “Jews.”
Secondly, did it ever occur to you that the sages whose comments are printed in the Talmud were sages who respected and lived by the words of the Talmud, i.e., Orthodox ones? What do different interpretations of the Talmud have to do with Orthodox reactions to practices that are completely contrary to the words of the Talmud?
Dying in battle for a rightous cause is considered an instant ticket to an afterlife paradise in islam, so I have heard. In proper context, this is not a very radical statement. Fighting the good fight is honorable.
I have also heard that many muslim terrorists believe that the innocent victims of a holy war also will go to paradise. Thus they are really doing little harm.
I know a few muslims. Arab americans. They impress me as being quite peaceful.
Islam grew out of Judaism and Christianity, in a sense. Mohammed is said to have been visited by the angel Gabriel and shown the truth. Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet, in the long line of prophets going back to Abraham, whom they call Ibrahim. They share all of the prophets from Judaism, IIRC. They also believe that Jesus was not resurrected, but that a double was killed in his place and that he was hidden by his followers. They do not believe that Jesus ever claimed divinity, so when Christians worship Jesus this is seen as a blasphemy, particular as one of the pillars of Islam is that there is but one God, and Mohammed is his prophet. So they have trouble with the Holy Trinity thing as well. Since Jesus is considered a major prophet who proceeded Mohammed, his message of tolerance and love was to some extents also incorporated into Islam. Whatever Mohammed related was written down and ascribed as the word of God, Allah. IIRC, Mohammed was illiterate so after his meetings with Gabriel he would tell his disciples what he had learned and it was faithfully recorded as the Qur’an. This is allegedy to be unchanged since Mohammed’s time and thus proof that this is the one true way. Others point out that because of the nature of Arabic that it is possible to anyway differ in interpretation, similar to differing interpretations of the Bible. More important is the concept of Fatwa, which basically the interpretation of the the areas which are not expressly covered in the Qur’an. Fatwa decisions are made by religious thought leaders, who do are not necessarily formally trained clerics, but can be anyone who has devoted himself to intense study of the Qur’an and is seen as wise by others in the local community. IMO, this gray area is what causes the variations in how Islam is practiced, since this is the area where individual interpretations of Allah’s intentions comes into play. The basis for the thought should be the Qur’an, but as we have unfortunately seen this can have in a few rare cases devastating results. No matter how deranged these folks can seem to us I am certain that they believe that they are righteous. Add to that followers who have suffered loss or tragedy in their own lives, and are looking for someone to blame and God’s validation of their rage and you have a recipe for disaster.
This is from my memory what I learned of Islam while I worked in Saudi. My information comes from reading several primer type texts from Islamic scholars and questioning my Islamic colleagues. There may be errors in my information, apologies.
Committing suicide
Question: What is the ruling regarding suicide in Islaam?
Response: Suicide is when a person kills himself intentionally by whatever means. This is haraam and regarded as amongst the major sins, and likewise included in the general statement of Allaah (Subhaanahu wa Ta’aala):
{And whoever kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell to abide therein, and the Wrath and the Curse of Allaah are upon him, and a great punishment is prepared for him}, [Soorah an-Nisaa, Aayah 93].
And it is established from the Sunnah on the authority of the Prophet (sal-Allaahu `alayhe wa sallam) who said:
((Indeed, whoever (intentionally) kills himself, then certainly he will be punished in the Fire of Hell, wherein he shall dwell forever)), [Bukhaaree (5778) and Muslim (109 and 110)].
In reality, the one who commits suicide, generally does so because of his desperate situation, either as a direct result of an act of Allaah or a human being. So you find him unable to cope with that which has afflicted him, and in actual fact he is like one who is calling for help from the scorching heat of the fire. So he has progressed from that which was tough (bad) to that which is worse. And if he was patient, then Allaah would have assisted him in dealing with the difficulty.
Shaykh Ibn 'Uthaymeen
Kayfa Nu’aalij Waaqi’unaa al-Aleem - Page 120