Questions about SHOGUN (most about 17th century Japanese culture in general)

Cafe Society
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I just rewatched the miniseries SHOGUN. I read the book 20 something years ago but don’t currently have a copy. A few questions, some about the plot and some about Japanese language/culture in general that I would love to have answer to (and please feel free to hijack this thread in any way you would like):

-I know that Shogun is inspired by/based on the true story of William Adams, Torenaga is a fictionalized depiction of Tokugawa Ieyasu, and that Mariko and Fujiko and Yabu and several other supporting characters had real life counterparts. Does anybody know if one of my favorite characters, Father Alvito (the Portugal born/Japan reared Jesuit priest/translator extraordinaire who was a throatcutting theopolitical schemer when he wasn’t a thoroughly decent person) had a real life counterpart?

-Blackthorne is known as Anjin (pilot) because the Japanese have difficulty with his name. It is explained that the honorific san appears after a name as a matter of respect (something I gather that is more than mister and less than lord), so he is usually called Anjin-san. Sometimes however his name (and other characters names) are followed by sama or ka. What is the difference between these suffixes? Are they all basically the same or are some more noble than others?

-About the samurai: In 17th century Japan, if you are a healthy male and your father was a samurai warrior, does that mean that you will probably be a samurai warrior as well? Would you have the option of not being a samurai warrior and not dishonoring your family? Is it possible to be a samurai and NOT be a warrior (i.e. is it a social class or a specific military caste)?

-When Mariko’s father assassinated his lord he was put to death and his entire family ordered to commit seppuku. Mariko’s husband spared (or forbade) her to do this, however. Was this because as her husband he automatically had more say over whether she lived or died, or would he have had to approach the Council of Regents [or whoever was in power] to have her reprieved? (One thing I remember from the novel is that Mariko had children by her husband before Blackthorne arrived- would they also have been subject to the death for the traitor’s family decree, or was ancestry only patrilineal?)

-When Mariko’s husband breaks his sword in attacking Mariko, how bad a thing would that have been? I know it wasn’t just a sword but a valuable and sacred object, but would he have gotten into major trouble for it?

-In the two seppuku scenes the person committing suicide has a “spotter” (for lack of a better word) who stands behind them with a drawn sword to finish them off. Was this an act of mercy (so that they would die of a quick decapitation rather than a slower death from disembowelling) or merely to ensure that they would indeed follow through with it?

-When Lord Yabu commits seppuku to atone for his treachery towards the end, it seemed to me he was getting off very easy. The samurai had in some ways less problem with bloodshed than the English (e.g. English monarchs usually stopped short of having an entire family including babies put to death) but had the English monarch been betrayed by a noble said noble probably would have been tortured. Was it Yabu’s right to commit seppuku or was this a favor granted to him by Torenaga? Would his family have been put to death for his act, or was that the discretion of Torenaga?

-Mariko speaks of her “Christian soul” and her “Japanese hara”. What is the difference between a soul and a hara?

-Does anybody know if Blackthorne is referenced in any of Clavell’s other books? I know that Torenaga’s descendants are major characters.

Thanks for any info.

J

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One more thing: I know that Toshiro Mifune was a major star in Japan, especially known abroad for his work with Akiro Kurosawa (who hated Shogun). Were or are any of the other Japanese cast members major stars in Japan?

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-sama is a much greater honorific than -san. It is primarily used by younger sisters and the like to older brothers. I’m not sure about -ka.

It is a social class, and not all Samurai were warriors (although in the time of the book most were). It was traced by father’s descent, although I believe only official children inherited. It works more or less the same as any other noble title.

Samurai could become monks and some did. Some slipped into the peasantry, although at the time of the book there was enough need for soldiery that this wasn’t a huge problem.

I believe this is more a quasi-superstition. Thing is, Katana are ridiculously feeble weapons. They can certainly do damage, but some of them are so eak that even a finger-touch could potentially rust it clear through. So they were prized. Samurai, at least poetically, considered their sword their soul. In any event, swords break and this would have not ben unusual. It was, however, a bad omen certainly.

The former. originally, the Samurai actually disemboweled themselves. By the time of the book, they were mostly making a small cut and then their second took the head off. Later on, they would be decapitated as they reached for the knife.

It was not his right to commit Seppuku, at least not in this case (usually, you could even to protest an action by your lord). In point of fact, the Japanese had no formal rules about it that I am aware of. Toranaga could have denied him that as a traitor, or just killed him on the spot. Torture was certainly not unknown to the Japanese, although they never developed it an art like the Chinese.

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His descendents are characters in two books, I believe. In Gai-Jin, one of his descendents is an impovershed loyalist samurai, I believe. In Noble House, a character who’s name I can’t remember (I don’t have the book in front of me) is one of his descendents. She’s the Japanese lover of one of the characters who dies just before the book starts, and the attempt to find out what information of his she has is part of the Soviet agent subplot.

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smiling bandit explained about “sama.” I think what you heard as “ka” is actually “chan.” It’s a diminutive that means “darling” or “dear,” I believe, as Mariko calls Blackthorne “Anjin-chan” in their more intimate moments.

Buntaro was obsessed with Mariko, who loathed him, and in the books, subtly retaliated against him for not letting her commit seppuku. She was very ashamed of being her father’s daughter. Since she was a married woman at the time of her father’s betrayal, she was free from her father’s taint and it was up to her husband to decide her fate. Buntaro didn’t let Mariko commit suicide because he was deeply in love with her and couldn’t bear the thought of her death.

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Not quite. His descendent, Yoshi, was actually in line to be Shogun, but due to political machinations it was a weaker, less-qualified relative, Nobusada, who got that title. Nobusada was married to the emperor’s sister, and as such, could be easily manipulated by the Emperor. Yoshi was quite wealthy, just caught up in a lot of intrigue and had to tread very carefully.

7

According to the book Learning from Shogun (out-of-print; available as a PDF download from the editor’s website):

The PDF is actually a pretty good analysis of Shogun and how it compares to actual history.

8

I can’t really say what the case was 300 years ago, but today, ‘-san’ is generally used to mean ‘Mr./Mrs./Ms./Miss’. However, because in Japanese you generally need some form of address after someone’s name, it’s also used in places where you wouldn’t say Mr./etc. For example, I call my mother-in-law Okaa-san (“mother”), while she calls me “Sub-san”. And when talking directly to a group, “everyone” also takes ‘-san’ (“mina-san”).

‘-chan’ and ‘-kun’ are used for children, casual friends, or for ‘cute’ nicknames. ‘-chan’ can be used for men or women, but ‘-kun’ is almost exclusively male. I don’t know of any rule for determining which to use, other than personal preference or what your friends happen to pick as your nickname. In my office (which is very casual, as Japanese offices go), all the women use -chan, and the men are split 70/30 between -chan and -kun.

‘-sama’ is a formal address used for people ranked above you. Nowadays, it’s mostly used for customers or clients, but even then not by everyone. In a shop, the employees (if they don’t know your real name) would call you “okyaku-sama” or “okyaku-san” = “customer”.

I don’t know what ‘-ka’ would be, but there is ‘-ke’, which is used when referring to a whole family, but not usually as a direct form of address. To call your entire family out of a larger group, I might say “Sampiro-ke no mina-san” “Everyone in the Sampiro family”

You didn’t ask, but there are also dozens of other forms of address based on individual jobs or positions, such as -sensei (teacher or doctor), Bush-daitouryou (Pres. Bush), Clinton-motodaitouryou (former Pres. Clinton), or Koizumi-sooridaijin (PM Koizumi). The head of Livedoor used to be referred to in the news as Horie-shacho (company president Horie), but now that he’s in jail awaiting trial, his title has changed to Horie-yougisha (suspect Horie).

“Hara” literally means “belly”, but has the same figurative meaning as “heart” in English (there are dozens of expressions like “speak from the belly” or “black-bellied” that have the same meaning in English if you substitute “heart”). One difference between hara and soul is that, AFAIK, there’s no concept in Shinto or Buddhism of your hara surviving or going anywhere after you die. There are, however, “ki” or “tamashii”, which are closer in meaning to soul or spirit.

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No, I’m talking about Blackthorne’s descendents. Both Yoshi and Nobusada in Gaijin are descendants of Toranaga.

10

Oh, yes, you are correct. I got a little mixed up there. Blackthorne’s descendent in Gai-Jin is indeed an impoverished samurai. He marries against his family’s wishes to a woman of the Willow World and he later dies in a bar brawl. She sends her son off to be raised by her in-laws, and to ensure that he is treated kindly she agrees to become Andre’s sole concubine. Andre has syphillis, and is unable to visit the Willow World.

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Major thanks to everybody, and that book link is ab-fab!

Do the other books say who Blackthorne’s children were with? I’m wondering if he ever settled down with Fujiko.

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I don’t think so. If you reread the book you’ll see that Toranaga finally gave permission for Fujiko to commit suicide, but she had to make it look like an accident. When the book wrapped up it appeared that Omi’s parents would make him divorce Midori, and that Toranaga may give Midori to Blackthorne as a wife, and unlike the mini-series, Kiku does not end up with Omi. Toranaga decides to terminate his own contract with her, because she was too beautiful and a distraction, and possibly give her to Blackthorne as second wife or mistress. These recommendations were made by Fujiko to Toranaga.

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I’m not sure that the sword was as central to Samurai life as is sometimes claimed. Muscle-powered weapons were abandoned with remarkable speed upon the introduction of the gun, and by the end of the 16th century Japanese armies were the most heavily gunpowder-armed armies in the history of the world to that point, using the world’s best guns. Their Samurai leaders showed very little sentiment for swords where superior weapons could be had, een as personal weaponry. Extended civil war has a way of weeding out sentiment.

Samurai were at least, if not more, as traditionally trained as ARCHERS as they were as swordsmen.

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Just to nitpick the books (because Sampiro asked, the whole “-san”/ “-sama” thing is anachronistic. Calling somebody “X-san” didn’t happen in Japanese until later.

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One of my favorite moments in the book (as I remember it) and the miniseries was when Buntaro drew and fired his bow several times in succession while sitting down, an amazing show of both skill and strength.

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And landed the arrows within inches of each other, at a target that he couldn’t see (he shot through a shoji screen into the garden.)

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Both aspects are correct. You definitely have it, and there was very little cult of the sword in this era; it was a very practical time. However, after Tokugawa Ieyasu became Shogun, the Samurai fell into a sort of civilized decline. In any event, they wound up getting very fixated on the swords, even if they didn’t use them much.

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Probably more because they didn’t use them much. It let the Samurai under the Shogunate say to each other, “Life’s gone to hell now. But back in the good old days…”, and created this mythic past where brave Samurai had these fantastic swords, and some complicated code of bushido and honor.

The same thing happened in Europe with the 18th-19th century glorification of the medieval knight.

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The knights were glorifying themselves back at the start of the medieval era. They didn’t have to wait until the end. :smiley: