Questions for US dopers

In My Humble Opinion
41

Just to be clear on the religions thing.

  1. The 1st Amendment to the U.S. Constitution: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;. It is illegal for the government to take any action that might advance one religion over another, inhibit the exercise of your religion, move to establish a state religion, or even give the appearance of preference. Although it appears like it only applies to the Federal Government, it also applies to State and local governments, and governmental entities like public schools, the police, etc.

  2. Due to a Federal law known as Title VII, It is illegal for a private employer to discriminate on the basis of religion (in hiring, firing, promotions, etc), so most employers, if they have any sense at all, would not ask your religion on a job application or make any move that implied that they cared about it. If you inform them of your religion, they must reasonably accommodate any restrictions that come with it (for example, if you could not work saturdays because you keep Sabbath on that day, but offered to make up the work on another day, they could not fire you for it unless it was an unreasonable request in the circumstances.)

So, between the laws that prevent the government and its agents from meddling in your religious life, and those that prevent your employer from taking action against you on the basis of religion, you would almost NEVER see a question about religion on a form … except maybe the Census.

42

Back to the car question. In America, it’s hard to become middle class without a car. Middle class people who have chosen to be carless are restricted to a very small number of places where it’s possible to live without a car.

43

If your trip takes you through Southwest Louisiana, let me know. I know some places there that have real Cajun cooking, not the mass marketed version. I lived there before Paul Prudhomme, so before it became popular.

The US isn’t the only place with massive ethnic food. When I went to Amsterdam I wanted to find a place with Dutch cooking. It was very hard - there were lots of Indonesian restaurants, Israeli, Chinese. We finally found some in a hotel dining room.

I went to the site of the JFK assassination when I was in Dallas, and it was nothing special. I was 12 when it happened, so it meant something to me. My kids wouldn’t care at all. I’d also prefer Stonehenge.

44

My background: I grew up middle class in the north central states. Until I was 10 or 12 I spent several weeks each summer on my grandparents farm. The town I grew up in has (had) a strong emphasis on education and personal ambition. I spent four years in the service, and a couple years after I got out, I moved to New England.

Number one – Is the standard of science (and other) education really that dismal?

My experience was that science and rational thinking were highly emphasized in school, to the detriment of the arts and humanities. The younger people I know seem to have gotten less basic science, and far less exposure to the scientific method or rational thought than I did. Locally, I know that the sciences are pushed rather hard in the school district I live in. That appears to be being pushed out somewhat by the “teach the test” mentality from the high-stakes testing implemented by the state.

**Number two **– how rife is racism? Would it be noticeable to an outsider, or is it kept underground? Would a black tourist, for example, leave the country feeling there is no racism or would they experience direct discrimination? Which are the most racist areas and which the least?

I don’t know how well I’ll be able to answer that, but I’ll give it a try. Where I grew up there was very little racism, but a significant amount of classism, or at least social stratification based on apparent income. There weren’t many black families in town (I recall three black kids in high school), but there were a fairly decent minority of Asians. Their acceptance seems to me to have been based on how easy the accent was to understand, and how willing they were to participate in the daily activities of the rest of us. I only recall one guy making a racist comment, and he was immediately rounded on by his friends for it. Both my wife’s family and mine have a couple of overt racists left in them, but they are of our grandparents generation, and their views are not accepted by most of their contemporaries, or any of the younger people.

I have noticed that there is a much stronger awareness of race in New England than where I grew up. There are some negative undercurrents, and I’ve seen at least evidence of one rather vile idiot (a friend of mine is a landlord, one of his units had a lot of damage done my a skin head painting and carving his room).

Number three – how religious is the average person?

That really does seem to depend on area. Where I grew up, religion was an expected part of your daily life, and what church you went to was as natural to conversation as what school your kids went to. Out here, it isn’t a part of daily conversation, and the only time someone asked about it, they were rather embarassed to be asking. My parents, on the other hand, reminded me that prayer works as recently as last night.
Number four – how law abiding is the average citizen?

I speed like there’s no tomorrow on the highway. But other than certain minor traffic laws, and maybe some old blue laws still on the books, I don’t think most people break the law.

And the things I was just wondering:

Number one - If you go away and you long for a home-cooked meal, what do you long for?

I can’t tell you what the average person does for food, but I can answer this one: Simply cooked meat, potatoes and a vegetable. It was the standard family meal when I was growing up, that and the ubiquitous “hot dish”. I don’t miss the hot dish at all. :stuck_out_tongue:

Number two – How “middle class” is middle class America? Does everyone have a TV, microwave, dishwasher and car – or are some of these things unaffordable for the average person. Do you go away on holiday every year? Twice a year? Three times? Can most people afford a decent restaurant meal every week? More or less often?

Never had a dishwasher growing up; but I think that was more my mother’s choice than anything else. The rest, a tv, microwave, two cars, a vacation every year seemed pretty standard. I don’t take vacations away as often as I did growing up, but I travel for work, and to visit family.

**Number three **– If I come for a visit, what would I be surprised about? One of the reasons I haven’t come is there is nothing that specifically seems to appeal to me. I like history and therefore like Europe, the Middle East and Asia. But America is a young country and does not offer that much in the way of history. What would I be able to see that I absolutely, definitely should not miss and cannot see anywhere else? (I’m definitely not thinking of things like the biggest ball of twine or longest hot dog)

There is history here too. Aside from the history of the nation, there are wonderful sites of cliff cites in the southwest, and the mounds in the Mississippi valley. There is also great natural beauty to be found, from the serenity of old growth forests to the loneliness of the windswept plains, from the sea pounding the shore to indomitable mountains.

Though, from you said above, I think you will be most surprised by the size of the country. This is a big place, and varied. Life on the northern plains is vastly different from life on the east coast. There isn’t yet a mono-culture here, and I, at least, am greatful for that.

**Number four **– why do you insist on leaving out the ‘h’ in herb? And why do you pronounce the word caramel as CAR-mel?
[/QUOTE]

Herb with an ‘h’ is a person, herb without an ‘h’ is a seasoning. I pronounce it car-a-MEL, actually. :smiley:

45

Like many have said, the country is so big and diverse that your questions are impossible to answer comprehensively, so I’ll just share my own experience, being that I live a pretty metro life in the northeast.

Number one – Is the standard of science (and other) education really that dismal?

I think we’re above average. People the world over come here for the universities. And I understand the high schools are generally really good.

**Number two **– how rife is racism? Would it be noticeable to an outsider, or is it kept underground?

People often say that this city is one of the most racist in the country. I don’t see it, but I don’t really look for it, either. If it exists, it’s subtle. There are some neighborhoods that I’d never visit with a black companion, though.

Number three – how religious is the average person? If you are an Atheist, can you comfortably bring it up in conversation or do you keep it to yourself?

Among my friends, it’s about 50/50. I’m comfortable talking about my atheism. The number one religion in the area is Catholicism, but there is a strong Jewish presence as well.

Number four – how law abiding is the average citizen?

Average? Very. But this is a city, and cities have problems. Theft is fairly rampant, and murder is not unknown. I lock my door, but I generally never feel unsafe.

Number one - what does the average person eat day to day?

That’s really not possible to say. I’d guess that this is one of the most culinarily diverse nations on Earth. If a cuisine exists, you’ll find it in the bigger cities, and those restaurants tend to do well. Sushi is popular these days.

Number two – How “middle class” is middle class America?

In the city itself, dishwashers are uncommon. The old apartment buildings just can’t handle the plumbing. Most people have microwaves. Maybe half of people have cars. That’s a lot, and it creates huge problems.

**Number three **– If I come for a visit, what would I be surprised about?

The lack of guns and Bibles.

**Number four **– why do you insist on leaving out the ‘h’ in herb? And why do you pronounce the word caramel as CAR-mel?
[/QUOTE]

Just because.

46

Reading through this thread it really struck me that the main appeal of America (after its natural wonders, but every country has natural wonders) is its food. (I am Canadian but I think it’s pretty similar here. The portions may be a bit smaller but the diversity is the same.)

In this city, it would be possible to go out for dinner each night for a month, each time eating at an establishment representing a different national cuisine, and each time having a delicious and affordable meal. I don’t eat hamburgers or fries or meat loaf or pizza (or most of the things considered “conventional”), but I never have trouble finding stuff to eat. The only time I do have trouble finding something nice is when I travel to places that don’t have roti and Ethiopian and Thai and six kinds of Indian in every neighbourhood. I don’t think Toronto is unique in this regard; I would expect that most mid-size or larger cities in the US offer the same culinary diversity.

Re racism: from my white girl perspective, I think the main difference between here (N America) and the rest of the world is that we are ostensibly anti-racist and multicultural. As a result, we get extremely offended by the merest suggestion that we might be racist.

Altho Canadian society is no more/less racist than anywhere else (from my perspective … I would like to hear from some more American people of colour before agreeing that racism isn’t a problem in America; here is one who disagrees) it seems that we are a lot more uptight about it than elsewhere. So although it isn’t as blatant as in other places, it can be much more sinister (because it’s hard to talk about when it’s not blatant).

Racism does operate differently in at least one other important way: since there are North American-born people of every visible ethnicity, it’s more common for discrimination to be based on accent. For example, a black Canadian-born person might experience life more like a white Canadian-born person than like a black African-born person. I have witnessed extraordinary racism directed at people who “talk funny” (or even have funny, foreign names), which would never be tolerated if the person merely looked funny. If a person of colour visited here, I would only expect him/her to experience racism after they opened their mouth and revealed themselves to not be native-born. (examples that a black African friend of mine experienced: “Oh, you’re from Africa? You speak English so well!” and “Go back to Africa” - the latter was from a Canadian black person)

47

[QUOTE=DangleYourModifier]

The serious ones first:

Number one – Is the standard of science (and other) education really that dismal?

Here is an OP ED from the NY Times about the state of education in the US
Most of your other questions the reply really depends upon where you are in America.

How far back does your ‘history’ have to be. American did not come into existence when the Europeans discovered it.

Because we know how to say things.

48

I thought I would stop back in and say that you should not attempt this. Maybe one time in a hundred or so it would help. The other ninety-nine times it will make things very, very much worse.

Regards,
Shodan

49

Number one – **Is the standard of science (and other) education really that dismal? **

It is incredibly inconsistent. I went to a small, mostly white high school and graduated with a very high rank. I believe my high school education was extremely limited – I didn’t even know what capitalism meant until freshman year of college. My husband went to a larger Catholic school and got an excellent high school education, graduating with good grades but not at the top of his class. But because I did so well in high school, I got into a very good university (as did he), and we both obtained an excellent liberal arts education. I think if someone is truly motivated to be an excellent student and an educated person, they will make it. The opportunity is there.

Some schools make it much easier than others, though. Part of the issue is that the property values in a town largely determine educational funding in that neighborhood, so poor and urban areas tend to be dramatically underfunded. But I grew up in the small town Midwest, so that’s not a reality I can attest to personally. Nobody would have walked into my high school and declared the conditions deplorable… it didn’t look like a bad school, it wasn’t rife with violence or cramped classrooms… its administrators simply did not grasp the concept of a thorough education, perhaps because they themselves were not educated enough. I had no idea what a crap education I got until I came to college. It’s very easy to be ignorant in America and not know it.

**Number two **– **how rife is racism? **

I too am shocked by those who say it’s virtually nonexistent. Racism is a deeply subtle and private thing, but it’s still alive and well. The average tourist probably would not encounter an alarming amount of it, but the average fly on the wall would definitely catch some deplorable things if it were flitting around random households for a day. Racism is pervasive in my family, in my family’s hometown (where social racism and classism runs rampant), and also in the small town I grew up – where as recently as the 1970s our lovely little community burned a black family out of their home and ran them from town. No, I don’t live in the deep south – I live in Michigan.

Number three – how religious is the average person?

I think ‘‘believes in God, but doesn’t go to church’’ is pretty accurate.

I’ve had the interesting experience of being both a devout fundamentalist Christian and a liberal atheist, and have experienced uncomfortable moments on both sides. Where I grew up, people make fun of you if you love Jesus too much… but they are also confused and offended by other faiths. I forgot what that was like as a college student living in a liberal bubble where Satanists happily converse with Catholic school graduates. But now that I work off-campus, I keep my mouth shut about religion. Christianity is about the only form of spirituality one can openly advocate where I work. I’m an atheist Buddhist, and I’m not about to make any unnecessary enemies by advertising that fact. I fill in ‘‘Buddhist’’ on forms when it asks. But it rarely asks.

Number four –** how law abiding is the average citizen?**

Most people I know are quite law-abiding, with the exception of speeding, smoking weed and drunk driving.

And the things I was just wondering:

Number one - **what does the average person eat day to day? **

My favorite ‘‘American’’ meal: Prime rib steak cooked medium-rare, baked potato with extra cheese and bacon, dinner salad with ranch dressing and a soda pop! (I know, I know)

Stuff I’m likely to eat at home: Macaroni and cheese, pasta with tomato sauce, roast and potatoes, baked chicken

In general I’m guessing Americans eat an inordinate amount of beef, potatoes, and cheese. Though it’s very easy to eat like that all the time, I don’t for health reasons. But those are the ideal dishes to me.

Number two – How “middle class” is middle class America?

You really would have to practically be homeless not to own a television set and a microwave. All of the people who I have known who were at one time homeless still owned automobiles while homeless–they just slept in them. From age 10-17 my family lived below the federal poverty line in a very tiny house – we had three vehicles, a computer, a television set, and a microwave. How can people be poor and have such luxuries? Credit. Credit is very, very easy to get and very easy to abuse in the U.S.

**Number three **– If I come for a visit, what would I be surprised about?
Probably the diversity of experience and natural wonder. I love Michigan because we get all four seasons full force – Spring, Summer, Winter, and Fall. And if you drive far enough north you’ll be in the wilderness. There’s so much of my own country I haven’t seen – I someday hope to visit the Grand Canyon or Yellowstone Park.

**Number four **– why do you insist on leaving out the ‘h’ in herb? And why do you pronounce the word caramel as CAR-mel?
Because that’s how you’re supposed to say it!

50

Where we live in this vast country really does color our views. I’ve lived in New England (that bit in the upper right corner of the country) my entire life for example. I find things people from other places say happen there to be shocking, and they’re in the same country!

In regards to where I live"

Number one – **Is the standard of science (and other) education really that dismal? ** The education system in the northeast is generally very good. If you go to Smartest State you’ll see all six New England states are in the top 14 and are consistently in the top 15 spots. My state you’ll note is ranked #12 out of 50. In funding we rank #50 out of 50, so there’s something to be learned about there **not ** being a strong link between spending and achievement. According to the Census Bureau, NH is in a three-way tie with Minnesota and Wyoming for highest high school graduation rates in the country: all 92%.

History education seems to have taken a sharp downturn since I graduated high school, at least based on some of the dismal history essays I’ve read in the past few years. “MLK freed the slaves” is something I’ve seen too many times, and not in jest or metaphorically.

**Number two **– how rife is racism? Would it be noticeable to an outsider, or is it kept underground? If a minority were to come here, they probably wouldn’t experience much overt racism. They’d be a novelty, however, since this is one of the whitest states in the country. There are some racists, I’m sure, but they seldom have an opportunity to make fools of themselves in acting on it.

Number three – how religious is the average person? If you are an Atheist, can you comfortably bring it up in conversation or do you keep it to yourself? Do people pray before they eat? Do people go to church regularly? Do you have pressure on you to conform to some faith? When you fill in a form do you write down a religion even if you don’t really have one?
The average person is quietly religious. We rarely talk about religion, and most of us have no idea who is a church-goer or who lacks faith entirely. There’s no pressure to conform to or join a religion, because you’d actually have to discuss religion to pressure someone. I don’t understand your last question - what forms would require a declaration of a religion? Our employers are legally forbidden from asking about our religions, and I can’t think of another official-type document that might ask it.

Number four **– how law abiding is the average citizen? **
Very. There are less than 20 murders a year in this state, and the state’s population is 1.3 million. Robberies of homes make the news. Most of our news is reporting accidents in-state, or bad things that happen in Massachusetts. As as others have said, people disobey traffic laws with the highest frequency of any laws.

Number one - **what does the average person eat day to day? **
I’m not sure. Here’s what I ate today, and I’m pretty average. Breakfast: instant breakfast because I ran late. Lunch: yogurt, banana, apple sauce, peanut butter crackers and a kudos bar. Dinner: pot roast and roasted potatoes. I’m willing to bet everyone else here had something different for all three meals.

Number two – How “middle class” is middle class America? Does everyone have a TV, microwave, dishwasher and car – or are some of these things unaffordable for the average person. Do you go away on holiday every year?
Everyone I know has a microwave, and most have dishwashers and cars. Few actually go anywhere out-of-state when they’re off from work.

**Number four **– why do you insist on leaving out the ‘h’ in herb? Herb is a name, and an 'erb is a plant thing used to season food. Why do many Brits leave the ‘h’ off of hospital, history and hope?

51

Where are you guys finding all these places without dishwashers? I have never in my life been in a house or apartment without a dishwasher, and I’ve been in some pretty dismal excuses for houses and apartments.

52

Boston.

It was unusual to find an apartment that did have a dishwasher. I think it might have something to do with the age of the buildings.

53

Manhattan.

A lot of the older apartment buildings don’t have dishwashers. I think it has to do with how the plumbing is set up, and also space is at a premium and there may not be enough room.

54

Oakland. Dishwasher? That would be you.

55

Ok so the consensus is as follows:

Education: Slightly worse than many developed countries, better than most other countries, depends where you are.

Racism: Not obvious but still exists, very taboo in general, depends on where you are.

Religion: Most of the country seems fairly religious but it’s mostly a private thing that you won’t generally run into on the street. (probably depends on where you are :slight_smile: )

Law abiding: Despite the popularity of American movies with violence and programs such as CSI, most people are generally law abiding except for speeding and the occasional smoking (but no inhaling :wink: ) of dubious substances. (also probably depends on where you are :stuck_out_tongue: )

Ok so far nothing unexpected. Much of the general ranting about these things probably has to do with the rarity of extreme situations, like outright persecution of atheists, blatant disregard for the law etc. I certainly think that you guys have it good and most people know it. If you’ve never experienced worse situation you might not fully be able to appreciate how good you have it but i doubt many Americans would trade places with anybody from anywhere else.

The food: Lots and lots of lots and lots of different things. Also what I expected but was surprised at the general consensus. I would think that at least some people say they live on burgers and pot roast and hate all the ethnic cuisine cluttering up the place :wink:

Middle class America: A damn sight better off than most anywhere else. Although many middle class South Africans have cars, microwave, tvs and dishwashers it is by no means the majority and some of our poorer people don’t even have electricity, so those things would be useless anyway.

The sights and scenery: Awesome natural wonders and the odd historical mention. The size of the country has been mentioned and I’m sure that strikes a lot of people, especially Europeans and Asians where everything is on top of each other. Coming from Africa I’d like to think that I’ve seen big open spaces and wonderful scenery but I might be completely surprised as well.

And it’s pronounced HERB because it has a fucking h in it. :wink:

56

DangleYourModifier writes:

> Despite the popularity of American movies with violence and programs such as
> CSI . . .

Here’s a little rule that might help you: Most American movies and TV programs are lies. Don’t expect them to be guides to typical American behavior.

57

Old houses in Kentucky and Ohio. Both kitchens would have required a remodel to install one. Studio apartments in New York state and Seattle.

58

There are plenty of places in and around Boston without dishwashers. It’s not the norm, but they aren’t that hard to find in places with small kitchens.

59

Really? And here I was believing everything I read on the internet too.

60

Well, I came in late, so instead of answering the OPs original questions, I’ll just respond to the synopsis…

I don’t know that I’d agree that it’s “worse than many developed countries”…I think it’s a matter of scale. Yes, there are plenty of areas where the level of education is quite poor; there are also many areas where it is quite good. If you want to look for evidence of “poor education” you will have no problem finding it. If you want to find many of the most well educated, brilliant minds on the planet, we have them as well.

Agreed. “Wholescale” racism is very much taboo, and is pretty hard to find. Racism on an individual scale is probably just as prevalent here as anywhere else.

This is, and always has been a society based on “Traditional Judeo-Christian Values”. That being said, religion issomething that for most people is a ‘personal issue’. Religion is generally not something that you will run into in the course of your daily life unless you specifically go looking for it.

Something that has always amazed me about some other countries has been the idea that law enforcement officials can be routinely bribed. That sort of thing simply does not happen in the US. Sure, we speed, and we jaywalk, and there are those people who will leap over the turnstiles on the subway…but when it comes to ‘serious issues’, the law is pretty much the law, and there is no question of ‘getting around it’.

I think that many non-Americans (and many Americans as well) fail to grasp just how vast and diverse this country is. It is big, and it is filled with 300 million people, and a remarkable number of them are ‘not from here’. (I’m not necessarily talking about 1st generation immigrants, but people who count themselves as being of ‘foreign heritage’) Because so many of us have come from ‘somewhere else’, we have brought our food, our traditions, our art and culture, with us. Which means that they are now available to all of us, no matter where we hail from.

I think that it’s true that our Middle Class is far better off than the ‘Middle Class’ in many parts of the world. In fact, I have heard it said (and don’t seriously doubt it) that our poorest and most destitute citizens are better off than half the people in the world, simply by virtue of the fact that they live in this country.

As mentioned before, this is a BIG country. We really do pretty much have it all, from a ‘natural scenery’ perspective. I think that no matter where in the world you go you will find ‘wonderful, surprising things’, but we simply have more of them than most countries.

I pronounce it “le-zure-eye-aye”