Sure Hollywood was around earlier. But that script came from a WW2 vet. Or do you think it was invented by that movie?
So, just what is the difference between a tradition and something that isn’t a tradition but people think it is? And what’s the difference between an old tradition and something that people have thought for a long time is a tradition? From where I’m sitting, there isn’t much daylight in between.
Traditions are well documented and well known. Stetsons for example are not in any Army wide publication, but their origin and their existence within certain units is well documented. Further, units who follow the tradition will have unit-level SOPs that outline the proper wear, occassions for wear, type of hats, colors, proper placement of rank and insignia, etc. They are not just some rumor that gets passed along like, “Oh. Yea we do that. Im pretty sure we’ve always done that.”
I would love to see pictures or read examples of actual enlisted MOH recipients being saluted by other enlisted or commissioned officers throughout history. Something that was not in a movie or fiction book. But actually something in a memoir or old picture or something. I just don’t think anything like that exists. Certainly not common enough to be called a tradition.
I really think that it started as ignorance and rumor. Up until recently, I couldn’t even find reference to it as a “tradition”. People like Rod Powers on about.military.com wrote articles claiming that it was a regulation. The ever popular armystudyguide.com actually stated that it was a regulation, even though the regulation they cited had no mention of it.
And senior NCOs use armystudyguide.com to pull their board questions from. And people studying for the board will use that site to study. So you have all these people believing something is a regulation, and it just gets perpetuated. Now, in the last couple years, I am finally seeing people admit that it isn’t a regulation. But now they say, “Well it is a tradition, though”.
In reality, people just don’t want to believe that something they thought was a rule for so long, never was. I even emailed Rod Powers when a similar thread like this came up several years ago. He never responded to me. During that thread, I couldn’t even find all of these current articles and such saying that it is a “tradition”. All I found back then were articles either saying it was a regulation, or the actual regs that said otherwise.
This is why I’m going with “perpetuated ignornace that won’t completely die”.
Was that line in the orginal novel? Or was it added in the screenplay? There were five people credited with writing for that movie. Some were involved with the book, others just the script. I am legitimately curious.
On second look. There were three. The two who did the novel were the same two who did the screenplay. I counted them twice. And they were both veterans. I am going to look into this further.
Still want to find some a nonfiction account of an actual, specific event. Or some pictures or something. Did either of these writers even know a MOH recipient? That would help.
No. I think it was invented out of thin air before World War II and the entertainment industry carried it on.
When I went to school at Texas A&M, one of the Air Force ROTC instructors there (a graduate of Texas A&M and a former member of the Corps of Cadets there) told us that a Tradition is anything that’s been done a certain way always. He went on to explain that “always” is defined as “For the last five years”.
The joke is that a college student in theory is in school for four years and then graduates and departs. If something was done for five years, it may as well have always been that way for you.
It’s called Google and then go to images… I found some pic’s and I’d find more but I’m at work so I can’t comb through them.
http://usarmy.vo.llnwd.net/e2/-images/2008/05/05/15227/size0-army.mil-2008-05-05-111959.jpg
http://www.brutallyhonest.org/.a/6a00d834516bb169e20147e05015ec970b-320wi
Saluting a MoH is both a military custom and courtesy. If you don’t know what that is, as in you never served in the military, use Google and learn.
I did do a regulation search and I found nothing as far as the Navy is concerned but I can’t think of someone who is in/has ever been in the military who simply would not salute a MoH.
At some point every tradition was invented out of thin air. Your point? Ever been to a dining in? Were you aware of the brouhaha over the black berets? Or green berets in the 60s? All traditions that were invented out of thin air by someone. But that does not make it less real.
If you can find a mention of it in entertainment before 12 O’clock High I’d be interested to see it. In that movie it was said in such an offhand way that it was clear that it was supposed to be well known to the audience at that time. But I don’t remember it being made a point in many movies at all. And I’ve seen a lot of war movies.
IME and FTR, I’ve known and been in situations where Warrant and Commissioned Officers have crossed the street to avoid having to return the salutes of approaching Enlisted Personnel on sidewalks. And I recall a situation where my Warrant Officer was visibly uncomfortable when a situation came up where I couldn’t avoid saluting him and he had to return my salute. He was a good man to work for and I kept a straight face to avoid embarrassing him more. He didn’t have much like for any ceremonial stuff and it was risky to be near him when the occasion called for him to wear his Officer’s Sword.
That’s not exactly correct.
Already stated.
Yes.
Yes, and I thought then, as I think now, the brouhaha was juvenile.
That’s the one and only movie I recall seeing the reference. And I don’t plan on digging through over a century of movies. Plenty of movies and television shows mention stuff about the military that’s absolutely false. My favorite one so far is one episode of Law & Order in which it was mentioned that members of the US military don’t have Miranda rights.
So you know of one movie from 1950 that mentions it but somehow the “entertainment industry carried it on.” I don’t get it.
So you don’t like it being said that traditions don’t come from thin air. Fine. But they come from somewhere even if the origin is murky. Traditions don’t come from regulations. The grog ceremony is a tradition. Wearing stetsons is a tradition. Spurs and spur rides are a tradition. Maroon and black berets came from the Airborne and tankers emulating their British counterparts long before they appeared in regulations. Green berets were a tradition before Kennedy officially allowed them. Saluting a MoH awardee is also a tradition started within the rank and file long ago. Do you have a problem with all traditions not covered by regulation or just this one?
No, it’s called, you haven’t put an ounce of thought into what you’re talking about and you tried to be smart, but failed. There are a million things wrong with your awesome examples, but I’ll start with the some of the biggest.
First of all, we are talking about proving something is a tradition or not. Showing a picture from the last decade is not going to have anything to do with tradition.
Second of all, a salute is an exchange. One person starts it, the other person returns it. In the picture of the civilian and the Soldier, who initiated the salute? What was the rank of that civilian? Maybe he used to be an officer. Maybe the Soldier in that picture is an officer, and the civilian used to be enlisted, so he’s saluting. Who knows. Maybe that Soldier would have saluted anyway, just because that guy is a veteran. I’ve watched veterans of old wars or famed units get saluted all the time by Active duty guys in uniform. That has nothing to do with the Medal of Honor. They are just trying to show deep respect by saluting old veterans. I don’t personally salute old veterans unless they were officers, but there is more substance to the statement “It is tradition to salute civilians who are veterans of prior wars” than it is to say “It is tradition to salute the Medal of Honor.”
Using a modern-day Soldier as an example of tradition is just idiotic. Even asking one is not going to help. We can’t use modern pictures because they are just going to show modern day misconceptions. We are looking for proof of tradition here. Let’s go over some other extremely common misconceptions that current Soldiers (and even NCOs) have:
The Compass doesn’t point North because there is an iron ore deposit in Hudson bay that it is pointing at.
You can’t shoot the enemy with a .50 cal, you have to shoot his equipment.
You can put an M249 on the turret of a marked ambulance. It’s okay, because it isn’t bigger than 5.56.
The 5.56 round is designed to tumble in flight.
… I could go on and on.
With Clinton, it really doesn’t matter at all. Why? Because the President isn’t a Soldier and never was. Are you going to show me a picture of a kid on the street saluting a Soldier and say that proves something is a tradition? Are you going to show a picture of a president failing to return a salute before getting on Marine 1 and use that to prove it’s tradition for a president to not salute back?
Since you’re such an expert user of Google, (and by the way, thanks for telling me what it is called; I had no idea it was called Google. Wow, you have been most helpful) why don’t you go find some pictures that meet these criteria:
- From the past. I know the Clinton years may have happened before you were born but in the Army, it takes more than 20 years to make something a tradition.
- Of a lower ranking Soldier in uniform wearing the Medal of Honor.
- Being saluted by a higher ranking Soldier wearing a uniform.
- If both of them are captured in mid salute, then both Soldiers cannot be officers, and/or the nonMOH-wearing Soldier cannot be an officer. Otherwise, we have no idea who initiated the salute.
Would you like to take a second attempt at being helpful? Maybe with less snark this time?
No, it is neither. If it were, you would be able to find it in AR 600-25. It’s not in there. Sorry, try again.
I am an Active duty infantryman and currently a US Army Drill Sergeant. Part of my job description includes, and I quote, “…insist that each Soldier meets and maintains the Army standards of military bearing and courtesy consistent with the highest traditions of the U.S. Army.” So, sorry, I think that makes me a bit of an expert in this particular area.
You will not find a regulation for the Army either. And up until last summer, you never would have found one for the Air Force. Why? Because it isn’t a tradition. Ya know, just because I wouldn’t salute someone does not mean that I don’t hold them in the highest regards. I would not salute the Command Sergeant Major of the Army either. That doesn’t mean that he isn’t important. I wouldn’t salute Command Sergeant Major (Ret.) Basil L. Plumley before he dies either. That doesn’t mean that I don’t think he is a huge hero and a person to be revered. It’s just that I would pay my respect in some other way.
No, but every Army-wide tradition is documented somewhere. If the tradition is within the unit, branch, or regiment, there is going to be something written about it.
Which is mentioned in USAREC Pam 600-15
The history and current policy of which can be found in the Standard Operating Procedures or “blue book” of any Cavalry unit.
Specifically listed as an example of an Army tradition in FM 7-21.13 along with the stetsons above. The spurs and stetsons will also be discussed at length in any Cavalry unit’s publications. The blue book will explain how to where it, when to where it, who can wear it, etc. It’s not just some phantom of doubt floating out there for everyone to guess about or argue over on the internet. It is documented. Unlike the “Salute the MOH rumor” which is not (except for the recent Air Force AFI, of course)
Exactly right. But way back then, before they appeared in written form, they were not traditions. They were just starting out as something. You could call it a fad. They became tradition only after they showed staying power and then were documented somewhere soon after, or even before.
Maybe our disconnect is a matter of semantics. See I would not call that a tradition. The US Army Special Forces started wearing Green Berets in 1954. Basically that wanted something to show that they were special and elite, so they decided to wear berets similar to other foreign units.
Kennedy approved their wear in 1961. Are you really arguing that at some point in that 7 year gap, they would have tried to argue, “But you have to let us wear it, because its tradition”? It was not a tradition. Kennedy sealed it’s fate as a tradition by approving their wear. Before that, they weren’t even wearing them everywhere, just out in the field or places far from the higher headquarters where they could get away with it. No, it was not a tradition at any point between 1954 and 1961. It was a bunch of guys in an elite unit trying to stand out.
Loach, I don’t have a dog in this fight. It’s not like I want it to be one way or the other. But the evidence is not there. If it is, I would genuinely LOVE to see. I welcome it. However, I gave up looking for it several years ago. The last time we had a thread similar to this. And I remember back then (2008?), there was even LESS out there to suggest it was a tradition. Everything that says “oh, yea it’s a tradition” seems to have been written in the past couple years.
I know you were not asking me, but I’ll answer. I have a problem with labeling something a “tradition” that simply has no evidence behind it, considering how much evidence (PAMs, ARs, FMs, SOPs) is behind every other tradition the Army has.
The reason for all of the confusion, and all of the recent “It’s a tradition” articles written recently, is because of the fact that now we have awarded the MOH to currently serving, living Soldiers. Before SSG Guinta, that hadn’t happened in like 3 decades. Thirty years is a long time for the rumor-mill to create a tradition that never existed. Before Guinta, Soldiers would swear to you that it is a regulation to salute the MOH. But now that more and more MOHs are being awarded to living Soldiers who are still serving, the subject has been getting brought up more. And people have finally started realizing that they were mistaken, and it isn’t a regulation. Now it appears some people have a hard time accepting they were wrong, and want to write articles that say, “It’s a tradition”. I think the recent AFI 1-1 from the Air Force shows that even high ranking people have been misinformed, or misunderstood the rules regarding a situation that just hadn’t come up in 30 years.
Before now, if active Soldiers were saluting a MOH recipient, they would have been saluting a civilian, retired veteran. Well Soldiers do that all the time anyway to civilian retired vets at military functions. One with a MOH would certainly have been saluted, but so would the guy next to him without it. If the guy assaulted Normandy beach, he’s going to get saluted by just about every Soldier there regardless of rank. 30 years of that without any instance of an actual currently serving Soldier wearing a MOH… that is enough time for ignorance to work its magic.
In his autobiography Rogue Warrior, Richard Marcinko tells of a time when an Army General from SOC came out to inspect Seal Team Six. Marcinko had one of his men (P.O. Michael Thornton) greet the General while wearing his MOH. He did this because, according to Marcinko, protocol dictates that MOH recipients get saluted regardless of rank and Marcinko wanted to see the General salute an enlisted person.
In the early days of Army basic when we were learning ranks and courtesies our drill mentioned that while there was no regulation stating that MOH recipients were to be saluted tradition demanded it. This was 1991.
I also e-mailed a friend who is active duty with 1st Cav, asking what he understands tradition or protocol to be regarding saluting MOH recipients. He acknowleged that there is no regulation saying that you must, but if you don’t you better have “a damn good reason, like being unconscious or dead.”
It appears that in some circles this is a tradition. Just because you’re unaware if it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
A Navy guy is telling a story about the practical joke he played on an Army General? I bet he tells it so much he starts to believe it himself. He even calls General Scholtes a “tight-ass” and is making fun of him for inspecting uniforms and grooming instead of being concerned with cool SEAL stuff. I think that story probably started as a “man, wouldn’t it have been cool if we did this to that tight-ass general yesterday” to evolving into telling it like they all actually did do it. I’m not buying it.
However, I do think what you have pointed out is very relevant. I think that story from that book may very well be responsible for such a wide-spread misconception as this. He stated “protocol dictates”. Well obviously it doesn’t. But to to every reader of his book, now it does. I think that book might be a huge reason this persistent bit of misinformation. Now that you bring it up, I have heard that story before about the SEALs and the Army General. Never believed it back then, and I didn’t know where it came from. But I have heard of Marcinko and this book, and I know it was really popular.
But I am not “unaware” of it. I am completely aware that people in the Army think it is a tradition. But since .000001% of them will ever be face to face with a currently serving MOH recipient, it never comes up in practice. So they are free to believe some incorrect thing, and it is never actually tested because it never happens. Then they tell other people in conversation that they better do it if they ever meet one or they will be in trouble. Those Soldiers he tells never come face to face with a MOH recipient, so they go their whole careers just believing something is true without ever looking it up. Then they pass on the same misinformation… etc.
In my early days of Army basic, I was taught by my drill sergeant that you don’t have to wear a cap if there is a roof over your head. Since you’re “under cover” you don’t need to wear one on your head. He was completely and utterly wrong.
Problem is, we can’t rely on what someone told us. We need to confirm the information for ourselves.
I cannot believe how many Soldiers in the Army, across the entire Army, of all rank and in all units, actually think that you don’t have to wear your cap or beret if there is a roof over your head. The roof could be an awning, an overhang, the roof at the gas station that keeps you dry when you’re pumping your gas… they believe anything over your head makes you exempt from wearing headgear. Strange that “overhead cover” isn’t even mentioned in the uniform regulation. If you are outdoors, you must wear headgear.
Should we try to defend the notion that "Refusing to wear your patrol cap or beret while pumping your gas because you have ‘overhead cover’ is a tradition in the Army? No. It is not a tradition! It is just wide-spread ignorance.
This site is supposed to be about fighting ignorance.
BTW, Cell Guy, go ahead and ask your Army buddy these three questions:
Why doesn’t a compass point north?
Do you have to wear a PC if you’re under cover?
Do you have to wear your PC while driving a TMP or GOV?
Previous threads on the subject:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=424761&highlight=“medal+honor”
In this one, I actually started off trying to prove that it was a rule or tradition. But there was nothing to be found supporting that notion. There weren’t even any articles saying it was tradition like there are now. Just assholes like Rod Powers stating its a regulation.
Came up again in this thread, here:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9393042&postcount=27
Please Note Spifflog’s post here:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8691120&postcount=32
Spifflog even asked a Medal of Honor recipient about this, who said:
I also find it interesting that two different people from those threads, both in the military, tried to explain how it isn’t actually required that officers return a salute. That’s another one of those nasty bits of shitpoor information that spread like the clap. Just ridiculous ideas that simply won’t die!