Quick baseball rule question

The Game Room
1

I have a casual interest in baseball, so I should know this, but I’m not sure, so here’s the question.

Situation: Runner on second base, ball is hit fair. Normally, this is not a force play situation for the runner on second because first is not occupied, so there’s no way for a force out on third; the runner would have be tagged for the out. But suppose the batter-runner now clears first and proceeds towards second, whereas the runner on second has, for whatever reason, been slow and hasn’t made it to third yet. Can the defence now get him out on third with a force out? The argument would be that the batter-running proceeding towards second (which he’s not obliged to but is doing anyway) drives the runner away from second and this creates a force play.

I realise the situation isn’t super likely to occur because it would involve serious running errors on the offense’s part, but I’d be curious to know what the rules would say on this.

2

I think no - that’s not how force plays work in baseball.

A force situation is created only when a batter becomes a runner (which obligates the runner on first to advance), or more generally when every base behind a runner is occupied in an unbroken chain back to the batter. The obligation to advance comes from the batter/runner’s right to first base, not from where the batter/runner happens to be running at any given moment.

In your scenario, the runner on second was never forced to advance because first base was unoccupied at the time of the pitch.

So, the defense would need to tag the runner from second if he’s between bases, just as in any non-force situation.

I am no baseball expert though so grain-of-salt and all that.

3

Play continues. There is no force on second or third. If the base-runner is tagged, he’s out. If he strays from the baseline to avoid being tagged, he’s out. If he otherwise reaches third base, he’s safe. He can retreat to second base, but if the batter-runner still “owns” second base, the base-runner is not safe. Neither is he out just because both runners are touching second base. If the batter-runner actually overtakes the base-runner, the latter is out. The batter-runner may try to retreat to first base so that the base-runner can reclaim second base.

~Max

4

There are a few different possible scenarios that could be spun out of the description in the OP. Let’s look at them separately.

In each scenario, the initial circumstances are the same: man on second, first base open, batter hits the ball into play.

Batter-runner advances to second, base-runner on second doesn’t move.

The base-runner on second, seeing the hit, elects not to advance; he stays put on his base.

The batter-runner rounds first and reaches second.

You now have two runners standing on second base. The fielder tags both. Who is out?

By rule, the original base-runner is entitled to the base, because he reached it safely and was not forced to leave it. The batter-runner is out (and gets yelled at by the manager).

Batter-runner advances to second, base-runner starts advancing but returns.

The base-runner on second, seeing the hit, elects not to advance.

The batter-runner rounds first and heads to second.

The base-runner, seeing him coming, decides to head toward third.

The batter-runner reaches second.

The base-runner changes his mind, turns around, and goes back to second.

Again, you have two runners standing on second base. The fielder tags both. Who is out?

By rule, the batter-runner is now entitled to the base, because he reached it safely. The original base-runner gave up his entitlement to second base when he voluntarily chose to leave it and the batter-runner got there safely behind him. Therefore, the base-runner is out (and the manager yells at him instead).

Batter-runner heads toward second, base-runner starts advancing but returns first.

The base-runner on second, seeing the hit, takes a few steps toward third.

The batter-runner, rounding first, sees the base-runner moving, and heads to second.

The base-runner changes his mind, turns around, and goes back to second before the batter-runner arrives.

Again, you wind up with two runners standing on second base. The fielder tags both. Who is out?

The base-runner on second did not surrender his right to the base simply by stepping off. That happens only if the trailing runner gets to the base first. By returning immediately to the base, he retains his right to it. The batter-runner is out (and the manager yells at both of them).

Batter-runner heads toward second, base-runner advances late to third.

The base-runner on second, seeing the hit, chooses not to advance.

The batter-runner rounds first and heads to second.

The base-runner, seeing this, chooses to head toward third.

The fielding team throws the ball to third base. The fielder catches the ball and steps on the bag.

The base-runner then touches the bag.

Is he out?

This, I believe, is basically the original question from the OP. The answer is no (as stated in other answers above). The base-runner must be tagged for the fielding team to record an out. (And the other team’s manager yells at the third baseman.) The force-out situation does not become applicable until the batter becomes a runner, which happens when the entire play is complete and all results are resolved.

The basis for this distinction might be made clearer by the following.

Batter-runner heads toward second, base-runner feels compelled to advance, then batter-runner changes mind.

Same basic setup and initial activity as the previous. The base-runner on second, seeing the hit, chooses not to advance; batter-runner rounds first and heads to second; base-runner, seeing this, chooses to head toward third; fielding team throws the ball to third base.

At this point, the batter-runner realizes he made a mistake, leaves second base, and goes back to first. The base-runner then returns to second. For whatever reason, the fielding team doesn’t make a play. Both runners are safe (and the fielding team’s manager yells at everyone).

But now consider…

Same scenario, but the fielding team throws to first before the batter-runner returns.

As above. The batter-runner realizes he screwed up by pushing the base-runner off second when he couldn’t make it to third, and heads back toward first.

This time, the fielding team successfully throws the ball to the first baseman, who steps on the bag.

Does a force out apply? Is the batter-runner out, or is a tag required?

Yes, the batter-runner is forced out, and no, a tag is not required.

This is why baseball rules distinguish between the batter-runner and the base-runner, in order to create differentiation in these scenarios. Just because you’ve got guys running on the paths between bases, they are not equivalent runners. The batter-runner remains the batter-runner until the play is fully resolved, with all players either safe or out. Only at that point does the batter-runner, if he’s safe, become a base-runner.

In the above, by achieving a base hit, the batter-runner is forced to advance to first base. If he makes the turn and heads to second, but the base-runner there doesn’t move, the fact that the batter-runner is forced to first remains in effect. Hence, a throw to the bag achieves a force out, and a tag is not required to achieve an out.

Does this make sense?

5

Thanks everyone for their replies, and especially to @Cervaise for his very comprehensive one. All the scenarios he describes make sense to me except the last one. I would have thought that by reaching first base once (before the fielders got the ball there), the batter-runner has fulfilled his obligation and the force play is over. He can try to move on towards second, and does so at his own peril, but I would have thought that the only way to get him out now would be by tagging, and that force play on first does not apply anymore because he did what he had to do when he touched the base the first time. But apparently I was wrong and he can still be retired with a force out if the fielders get the ball there before he returns to the base. (Sounds similar to how base-runners have to tag up after a fly out.)

6

Moved to the game room.

7

You were correct in every other scenario you described, but I don’t think you’re correct in this one.

Once the batter-runner reaches first base, there is no longer a force in effect, and he must be tagged for an out to be recorded. The fact that he may have reached second base and is now retreating back to first makes no difference.

The OP is correct in questioning this scenario.

8

And as this points out, there are no quick baseball rule questions.

9

The straight dope

Rule 5.05: “The batter becomes a runner when: (1) He hits a fair ball; …”

Rule 5.06(a)(2): “Two runners may not occupy a base, but if, while the ball is alive, two runners are touching a base, the following runner shall be out when tagged and the preceding runner is entitled to the base, unless Rule 5.06(b)(2) applies.”

Rule 5.06(b)(2): “If a runner is forced to advance by reason of the batter becoming a runner and two runners are touching a base to which the following runner is forced, the following runner is entitled to the base and the preceding runner shall be out when tagged or when a fielder possesses the ball and touches the base to which such preceding runner is forced.”

Rule 5.09(b):

Any runner is out when:
(1) He runs more than three feet away from his base path to avoid being tagged unless his action is to avoid interference with a fielder fielding a batted ball. A runner’s base path is established when the tag attempt occurs and is a straight line from the runner to the base he is attempting to reach safely; or
…
(4) He is tagged, when the ball is alive, while off his base.
…
(6) He or the next base is tagged before he touches the next base, after he has been forced to advance by reason of the batter becoming a runner. However, if a following runner is put out on a force play, the force is removed and the runner must be tagged to be put out. The force is re moved as soon as the runner touches the base to which he is forced to advance, and if he overslides or overruns the base, the runner must be tagged to be put out. However, if the forced runner, after touching the next base, retreats for any reason towards the base he had last occupied, the force play is reinstated, and he can again be put out if the defense tags the base to which he is forced;
…
(9) He passes a preceding runner before such runner is out;

Definition of Terms:

A FORCE PLAY is a play in which a runner legally loses his right to occupy a base by reason of the batter becoming a runner.

(Force Play) Comment: Confusion regarding this play is removed by remembering that frequently the “force” situation is removed during the play. Example: Man on first, one out, ball hit sharply to first baseman who touches the bag and batter-runner is out. The force is removed at that moment and runner advancing to second must be tagged. If there had been a runner on third or second, and either of these runners scored before the tag-out at second, the run counts. Had the first baseman thrown to second and the ball then had been returned to first, the play at second was a force out, making two outs, and the return throw to first ahead of the runner would have made three outs. In that case, no run would score.

Example: Not a force out. One out. Runner on first and third. Batter flies out. Two out. Runner on third tags up and scores. Runner on first tries to retouch before throw from fielder reaches first baseman, but does not get back in time and is out. Three outs. If, in umpire’s judgment, the runner from third touched home before the ball was held at first base, the run counts.

~Max

10

My understanding is that you are correct.

This rule would apply if the batter, after being safe at first, retreated towards home plate: “However, if the forced runner, after touching the next base, retreats for any reason towards the base he had last occupied [for a batter-runner, home plate], the force play is reinstated, and he can again be put out if the defense tags the base to which he is forced”

For example, that a batter can get caught in a pickle between first and second base.

~Max

11

None of those cites is directly relevant to the situation where the batter-runner rounds first and stupidly heads for second while an earlier base-runner stands there, not running, occupying the base.

There is no pickle/rundown for that batter-runner between first and second because second is not available as a safe base where he can advance. The point of a pickle is that the runner is moving back and forth between two open bases, trying to get to one of them, while the fielders systematically move the ball in order to tag him. If second base is occupied, any such activity would just be a waste of time. Only first base is available.

To be fair, rules interpretation is quite complicated, especially in a real-time situation where players are running back and forth and split-second timings are critical. I’ve seen several highlight clip collections about baserunning mistakes where two guys wind up standing on one base and the fielder slaps his glove on both of them and then looks at the umpire. “I know one of these guys has to be out, but I have no idea which one, so I’ma tag 'em both and let you make the call.”

12

A force play is only possible when the ball is hit into play and there is no empty base behind a runner. If the batter-runner reaches first base safely, and then has to retreat to first because he’s in danger of being put out, there is no force play on him. In that situation he has to be tagged while off the base for an out to be made. It doesn’t matter if he’s “forced” to go back to first because second base is occupied. That’s not what the rules consider to be a force play.

In the OP’s scenario, there is no force play on the runner going to third because there was no runner on first when the ball was hit. The batter-runner heading for second doesn’t force him to run to third. The runner who started on second could just stay there with no danger of being put out. It might be a stupid thing to do, but the rules don’t require him to try to advance to third.

13

It seems to me that Rule 5.09(b)(6) is the only rule providing for force outs. It states explicitly: “The force is removed as soon as the runner touches the base to which he is forced to advance”. The only situation where force is reinstated is, quote: “if the forced runner, after touching the next base, retreats for any reason towards the base he had last occupied, the force play is reinstated, and he can again be put out if the defense tags the base to which he is forced”.

Now this is a little complicated, but force is only reinstated if the runner, from the base he was forced onto, retreats to the base he started at. Force can only be reinstated for a batter-runner if he retreats from first base back towards home plate. A batter runner who rounds first base and then turns back to first base is not subject to force–he must be tagged, as e.g. Elvis Andrus was on 4/19/14:

~Max

14

No. He has to be tagged.

If somehow both runners end up standing on second, the defense simply has to tag the runner who came from first; he is not entitled to the base.

15

yes, but in that case, second base was open, and thus a legal base for him to occupy. Is it different if, in the scenario described by Cervaise, second base is occupied, and therefore not a legal base for him to occupy? I’m legitimately asking. I don’t know.

16

There is though, because the runner on second could always take off for third at any time. The base is only unavailable while the other runner is standing on it. In fact it’s not unusual at all for a runner to stay in a pickle to let other runners advance. That said, you are entirely right that it’s pretty common for a pickle to end with two runners standing on the same base.

The best (funniest, that is) of these is when the runners don’t know either and both of them leave the base (thinking they are out) or the wrong one does. Then the fielder tags the runner (who was safe, but is now off base) - double play!

And @Max_S is correct on the rule for a batter-runner who reaches first, makes a turn, and then returns to the base. That is 100% a tag play. It actually happens relatively frequently when an OF fields a hard-hit ball and tries to catch the batter taking too big a turn around first. Whether second is occupied has no bearing on whether that is a tag play or a force.

Or, put differently, a force out only applies at the next base, and only applies until the runner (or batter-runner) reaches that base safely, as long as he doesn’t retreat back towards the base (or home plate) he started at.

No. It does not matter at all. Even if the R1 made it to second, and two runners were now standing there, you couldn’t get either one of them out by tagging the base. You have to tag the runners.

Let’s say this is Little League and the fielder tags second base and then starts jumping up and down because they made a play, and then they throw the ball back to the pitcher. If either runner takes off and makes it safely to an unoccupied base nobody is out.

17

That is not different.

By definition, a force out is when Runner A must advance because a runner BEHIND him must advance to the base Runner A previously occupied. There is no other “force out” in baseball.

Even a runner off his base who must return because a fly ball is caught is not subject to a “force out.” (that play is technically known as a live ball appeal.) The batter-runner having to make it to first base? NOT a force out, actually. Force out has one definition.

It isn’t actually possible to have a force out at first base.

18

There’s another aspect to this we haven’t discussed yet: it’s a force if a runner who is forced to advance is put out, even if he is tagged. This is important when it’s the third out of an inning, and a runner has crossed the plate on a play, because no run can score on a play where the third out is a force out.

An example: Runners on first and third. Two outs. Batter hits a slow grounder to the second baseman. The runner on third takes off and crosses the plate before the second baseman fields the ball. Rather than tag second base or throw the ball to the shortstop to tag the base, the second baseman tags the runner before he makes it to second. No run counts because the third out is a force out, even though it was done by tagging the runner instead of the base.

19

From @Cervaise 's second scenario:

I’d think that, in this case, the manager would still yell at the batter-runner, because he created the situation by trying to continue on to second. Well, ultimately, I suppose it’d depend on the hit, but it seems to me that a batter-runner getting greedy on a hit that “should” have been a single would be more common than a hit that “should” actually have been a double.