Tom Shippey juxtaposes these two quotes, both from the last chapter of TTT, when Shagrat and Gorbag find Frodo in Shelob’s lair:
and then, a few paragraphs later:
In other words, Shippey says, abandoning one’s companions is considered a bad thing by orcs, just like it is by the good guys, and orcish ideas of good and evil don’t really appear to be substantially different from human/elvish ones, but they either don’t recognize the contradiction between what they’re saying and their own behavior, or they don’t care.
Which all fits with what Bartman suggests about Tolkien’s probably view on orcs – that they could be good, but circumstances make it highly unlikely.
[sub]Incidentally, one of my friends from another board, who’s a really sweet guy, posts with the handle Gorbag – I’ve never been able to read his namesake’s scenes without giggling since…[/sub]
Couldn’t they be making a historical reference? (I might say that “this is the greatest threat to democracy since the Whiskey Rebellion”, but that doesn’t mean I personally witnessed the event.) Which brings up the whole issue of Orc education . . .
On the OP, here’s the way that I see it: Treebeard is described as being the oldest creature under the sun. Bombadil and Gandalf (and the other Ainur) certainly, and probably Galadriel and Cirdan, are older than Fangorn, but they all pre-date the Sun. Of those creatures “born” under the Sun, Fangorn is the eldest still living.
My personal breakdown on the categories:
Eru Iluvitar, in his own category. Eternal.
The Ainur. Gandalf, Elbereth, Sauron, etc. Pre-existed the World, and took part in its creation.
Tom Bombadil, in his own category. As old as the World, but not part of it.
The fey: Nature spirits. Goldberry, Ungoliant, and maybe Caradhas. An integral part of the World, created with it.
The Free People, and corruptions of same. Elves, men, orcs, trolls, etc.
And while we’re on the subject of trolls, why (whatever their origin) do they turn to stone in sunlight? Gandalf seems to imply that they were formed of stone in the first place. And what, pray tell, are the Stone-Giants?
I agree, logic suggests there must be. For some reason I find the idea of female Orcs more horrifying than the Orcs we DO read about. I wonder if Tolkein felt the same way!
A long time ago, when I had way too much time on my hands, I came up with a new Bombadil theory. Seeing this thread brought it back to me and, as I’ve never seen anyone discuss it, I’m curious to see some feedback. Sorry this is so long.
It is clear that there were other spirits in Arda that were neither Maiar nor Valar. There were, for example, Dragons and Barrow Wights. Where did these spirits come from? They could have been Maia who had gotten stuck with incredibly bad jobs. However, the evidence suggests that when Ea was created, other spirits/creatures were created as well. The key textual evidence for this is Aragorn’s statement, made in the presence of Gandalf that “There are many evil and unfriendly things in the world that have little love for those that go on two legs, and yet are not in league with Sauron, but have purposes of their own. Some have been in this world longer than he.” (Fellowship p. 378.) These “things” cannot be Maiar or they would not have been in the world longer than Sauron. Rather, they must have already been here when he arrived. Aragorn’s claim essentially echoes that of Bombadil who claimed to have been in Arda “before the Dark Lord came from Outside.” If there are unfriendly and evil things in the world, why not friendly and good things? Bombadil is simply a good counterpart of one of these (for want of a better word) indigenous beings. While not precisely a nature spirit, he was created with the world and did not come from “Outside” as did the Valar and Maiar.
Tolkien has given us one clue that, as yet, I have not seen anyone discuss. What I find fascinating about this clue is that it is exactly the kind of thing that Tolkien would intentionally place in his work for those to find who shared his passion for languages. When Frodo asks Goldberry who Bombadil is, she first replies, " He is." Goldberry’s response sticks in the mind. We sense that she has communicated something of deep significance but we don’t know what. The key is linguistic. When Goldberry tells Frodo “He is,” she is using the common tongue. Had, however, she been speaking Elvish, she would have said “Ea” (Silmarillion, p. 404.) (Sorry, I don’t know how to make the umlaut.) Note how similar this is to the puzzle (say “friend” and enter) that Gandalf must solve to enter Moria. The answer is literally spelled out but turns on a proper translation.
This seems to support the "nature spirit" theory but it need not necessarily do so. Goldberry is actually telling us not that Bombadil is God but that Bombadil's existence is somehow bound up with the existence of the material universe, Ea.
I would even go a step further. The “Flame Imperishable” (which I suggest is the capacity for free will) is the motive force for the Ainur (the Vala and the Maia). “And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, ye shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme, each with his own thoughts and devices, if he will.” (Silmarillion, p. 3) Illuvatar, however, also creates the material world with the Flame Imperishable. “And I will send forth into the void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be;” (Silmarillion, p. 10) In other words, Ea, the World, is itself a “being” just as are the Ainur. There is other evidence which also suggests this. For example, Legolas claims he can hear the stones lamenting. (Fellowship p. 371)
Under this analysis, when Goldberry says of Bombadil that "He is" she is really saying that Bombadil is an avatar of the physical universe. While Bombadil is an enigma, he actually fits seamlessly into Tolkien's cosmology.
You’d probably enjoy the PC game Arcanum, which is set in a fantasy world not unlike Tolkien’s that is in the middle of an industrial revolution. Racism is an important facet of the game, orcs are living in cities because they provide cheap labor in the factories, but the other races are slow to adjust their attitudes towards them.
Is the “Flame Imperishable” the same as the “Secret Fire”, of which Gandalf says he is a servant? (“The Bridge of Khazad-dum”, FoTR, p. 429.) If so, does this imply that Gandalf actually works for Tom Bombadil? That might explain why he says he intends to have a long talk with Bombadil at the end of the Return of the King–because he is reporting his mission accomplished, and is asking for permission to go home!
Relying heavily on my well-worn copy of “The Complete Guide to Middle Earth” by Robert Foster, I find that the Secret Fire is probably the same as the Flame Imperishable. However, I don’t think that necessarily means Gandalf works for Bombadil, even under Truth Seeker’s scenario. Rather, I would say that Gandalf and Bombadil both report to the same boss (Iluvatar).
The Istari, including Gandalf, were definitely sent by the Valar. I am convinced that when Gandalf was reincarnated, he was sent back by Iluvatar Himself. So unless one truly believes that Bombadil represents either one of the Valar, or the Almighty, Gandalf doesn’t work for him. IMHO.
I’d had sort of a similar thought – it would have been neat if there was a colony of “Free Orcs” somewhere. They could have sent aid to the King before the Fields of Pelennor and fought against their cousins. It would have been neat to hear about them marching into the city before the siege, although I bet the majority of the population wouldn’t have been too keen on it, even if they were there to help.
I always thought that he said that because he was the one who had the elf-ring of fire (as we find out at the end of the trilogy). Riddling, boasting talk, like Bilbo with Smaug in *The Hobbit{/i], this time intended as a stall to get the rest of the Fellowship the hell out of Moria.
Since Gandalf (1) was with God (Eru) at the beginning, before the creation of the world, (2) went down into the world to help the Children of God, (3) sacrificed himself in order to save the Fellowship, and by extension the World, and (4) he was more or less resurrected after death . . .
. . . I imagine there must be theories out there that Gandalf = Jesus, despite Professor Tolkien’s well-known dislike of allegory. Are there any such theories out there, and how are they regarded by Tolkien readers?
Interesting theories. I’m not entirely sure about whether the secret fire was the same as “the flame imperishable.” I tend to doubt it, though. IIRC, in Tolkien’s mind, the flame imperishable seemed to be something unique to Iluvatar and he uses it to create things that have an independent existence. Even the Valar couldn’t do that, e.g. creation of dwarves. In any case, G. wasn’t the only being who could handle fire. Balrogs, for example, were spirits of fire and “wielded the flame of Udun” IIRC. I don’t even think G. had any particular natural affinity for it. Rather, I think it came about because of his possession of one of the three rings.
[hijack]
If the secret fire is the same as the flame imperishable and the universe (and Bombadil) only exist because they are infused with the flame imperishable, wouldn’t that make G. “Master of the Universe?”
[/hijack]
FWIW, I think G. was sent back by Manwe, not Iluvatar. IIRC from the Silmarillion, none of the Valar or Maiar could return to Iluvatar until the cycle of the world was complete.
I don’t know, but in JRRT letters, Tolkien implies himself that Eru had to intervene to send Gandalf back. I don’t have the book in front of me so I can’t quote the particular letter, but at the time, I recall JRRT expounding at length on the constraints on the Valar to act directly in Arda.
Good discussion. I haven’t read this thread for a couple days so let me respond to a series of points.
Truth Seeker, you have a very interesting theory but I think it falls short on a few points. The Flame Imperishable is strongly identified with Eru. Its closest equivalents in The Bible would be “The Breath of Life,” “The Word,” and “The Holy Spirit.” Each of these like in Tolkien’s world is an aspect of God. Which Tolkien categorically denied Tom was. Here is a quote from The Ainulindale where Tolkien strongly associates it with Eru:
Thus while the fire provides existence to the universe, it exists with Eru not in Ea or the void that surrounds it.
The second point is simply, if Tom is an avatar of The Flame how is it that, “Power to defy [Sauron] is not in him.” As the creative power of the universe Tom should be unasalable. How could Sauron defeat a force his master couldn’t control?
The final point is that Tolkien explicitly placed Tom in the narrative to demonstrate a being that is neutral. As Eru is not neutral, and explicitly intervenes on at least one occasion, how could an aspect of Eru remain neutral?
Doghouse Reilly, yes The Flame Imperishable is The Secret Fire Gandalf was referring to.
Well the full reference you were thinking about in FotR is:
Three fires are mentioned. The last two are easy(ish) to figure out.
Anor=Sun in Sindarin. The sun was created by the Valar and provided to assist the inhabitants of ME in their struggle against Melkor/Morgoth. It is both a symbol of the Valar’s opposition and a direct assault on Morgoth and his creations thus many are weakened (orcs) or destroyed (trolls) by it. As Gandalf has been given a nearly identical mission he identifies with it and as a ‘wielder’ he may have some of its properties. It is not Narya. The three rings were not made for war or combat (although some properties like ‘awaking the fire in the hearts of men’ could be useful in war). Nor was Gandalf going to announce that he was the keeper of a artifact of great power, when he and the other keepers had spent thousands of years hiding where they were.
Udun=Hell in Sindarin (which is why the NW corner of Mordor is later named Udun). This is simply identifying the Balrog with its master Morgoth.
The first fire however is a bit harder. Gandalf states he is a servant to it. This likely eliminates the Narya as the source, both because he is unlikely to mention that he has it as stated above as well as he would hardly describe himself as a servant to his ring. My belief is that the Secret Fire is the Flame Imperishable, and Gandalf is stating that he is a servant to Eru. Here are a few points where Tolkien uses the two interchangeablely.
Here is an event described in The Valaquenta:
Here is the same event described in The Ainulindale:
Here is another section from The Ainulindale where the creation is compared to the perfect creation which will happen at the end of time:
In all of the above the two phrases are used interchangeably.
Truth Seeker, as far as Galdalf’s ‘reincarnation’ as the White goes this is what Tolkien had to say (from letter #156).
Tolkien’s intention seems to be that Eru himself interviened and sent Gandalf back. The context of the quote makes this even more clear, but the full quote is about 3 pages long so I haven’t included it here.
Wow these are starting to get long. I’ll shut up now.
I hope you’re satisfied. You made me dig up my copy of the Silmarillion for this!
My suggestion isn’t that Bombadil is an avatar of the flame imperishable, it is that the the universe (Ea) is a being just like the Valar and Maiar.
The Valar and the Maiar were created with the FI, “And since I have kindled you with the FI, you shall shall show forth your powers, etc.” This doesn’t mean, of course, that Valar are Iluvatar, just the opposite. The Valar are independent from Iluvatar and are beings in their own right with their own thoughts and existence. It is true that the FI is closely associated with Iluvatar, however, “God is in us” is a common religious theme.
When Iluvatar creates the universe he says "And I will send forth into the void the FI and it shall be at the heart of the World . . . " (emphasis mine) It follows that both the World (Ea) and the Valar/Maiar contain the FI. It doesn’t mean that either of them is Iluvatar and it doesn’t mean that the FI is no longer with Iluvatar. As you point out, the FI is still with Iluvatar. Nor does it mean that Iluvatar is at the heart of the World because Iluvatar is beyond the confines of the World.
The FI is a flame. Like an ordinary flame, it can light other flames without being consumed. That’s the way I read the passage, anyway. Iluvatar used the FI to “kindle” the Valar just as he used the FI to “kindle” the World. It follows that Ea is a “being” just as the Valar/Maiar are. IIRC, there are some parallels for this idea in some mythologies.
Anyway, the point is Ea isn’t Iluvatar, it’s a creation of Iluvatar and had limits just as any other of Iluvatar’s creations did.
Tom is not, therefore, an avatar of the FI anymore than one of the Valar would be. The quote you point out, “Power to defy [Sauron] is not in him, etc.” actually kind of supports my thesis. If everything else was conquered Bombadil would go too, “last as he was first” Translation: If Sauron succeeds in completely dominating the physical universe, Bombadil, too, would finally be dominated. This makes perfectly good sense if Bombadil is an avatar of the physical universe.
Finally, Bombadil’s neutrality doesn’t really argue against him being an avatar of Ea. As I said, I’m not suggesting that Bombadil is a manifestation of Iluvatar. As an avatar of Ea he would be more or less neutral.
The most intriguing evidence for this theory is the linguistic clue I cited. It is impossible that JRRT didn’t fully realize what he was doing there.
BTW - You’ve convinced me that the secret fire and the FI are the same. That was a bit of a side issue, though.
