Rabbi Says "Giants" = "Aborted Fetuses" in Hebrew? Huh?

[Northern_Piper]

At this site, some guy billed as “America’s Rabbi” has this to say about one passage relating to the Flood story:

Key to interpreting the Bible (the Old Testament) suggests the Rabbi, is the Hebrew language. In that language, he notes, the Bible tells that in the time just before the flood there were aborted babies. “Everyone is familiar with that section just before the flood, of giants,” said Rabbi Lapin. "The King James translation refers to these people as giants - one thing, in the Hebrew, it becomes immediately very clear is that what we really are talking about is aborted people, aborted fetuses."

“In Hebrew,” explained the Rabbi there is “one word for giants (and) aborted fetuses.”

I presume the passage he’s referring to is Genesis 6:4, which the KJV renders as follows:

There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

I have to say this sounds goofy to me, but I know nothing of Hebrew, so I turn to the Hebrew scholars of the Dope - can you explain what this Rabbi is talking about?

[Scuba_Ben]

Excuse me while I pull out the text…

The phrase in question is Han’filim hayu va’aretz bayamin hahem. My translation: “The Nefilim were in the land in those days.” I have usually seen Nefilim translated as “giants” or some other mighty and ancient race.

I’d have to cross check what the Hebrew terms are for “fetus” and “aborted fetus.” Every word I can think of for “baby” or “child” has nothing to do with the root word NPL, so I suspect that I won’t find anything relevant.

[Hypnagogic_Jerk]

Dex talks about the Nephilim. No mention of aborted fetuses.

[Nametag]

I found the following discussion at, of all places, FreeRepublic.com:

The etymology of nepîlîm is uncertain, the following explanations have been advanced with mixed reception. First, it may derive from the niphal of the verb pãlã, meaning “be extraordinary,” i.e., “extraordinary men.” Second, it may be derived from the verb nãpal, “fall,” in one of the following senses: (1) the “fallen ones” - from heaven, i.e., supernatural beings; (2) morally “fallen men”; (3) “those who fall upon,” in the sense of invaders or hostile, violent men; (4) “those who fell by” the sword (cf. Ezk. 32:20f.); (5) “unnaturally begotten men” or bastards (from cf. nepel, “abortion” or miscarriage"). (vol. 3, pp. 518-519)

The Greek version of the Old Testament, the Septuagint, renders the Hebrew term nephilim as gigantes, which literally means “earth-born.” This is often misunderstood to mean “giants” - which the nephilim apparently were also.

[Noone_Special]

Hebrew Speaker weighing in…

The guy is somewhat confused, I think – the word for “abortion” in Modern Hebrew is hapala, which **does **come from the same root (NPL) as nephilimp but AFAIK it was invented by the Hebrew Language Academy in modern times, and is not biblical.

The root NPL refers to the action of “falling” or “causing to fall”; I’ve always taken Nephilim to mean, roughly, “Fallen Ones” – the notion of Angels Fallen from Grace comes from this text, I believe. The singular is Naphil.

There is really no single word used to describe “an aborted fetus” in Hebrew; if one were required, I’d use Nephel, and certainly never Naphil.

IMHO there is no reason to believe the writers of the Biblical text were thinking of aborted fetuses when they used or coined the word Nephilim

[Mangetout]

Anyway, how would aborted fetuses become ‘mighty men of old’?

[cmkeller]

In Talmudic literature (not Biblical, but not too modern either, Noone Special), the word “Nephel” does mean a miscarried fetus, as well as a non-viable infant (one that dies before completing its first month of life). The word comes from the root “to fall” (implying that the child in question was never viable, but was destined to fall dead). The word “Nephilim,” which is used in reference to the giants, also comes from this root, but is stated in the causative form - the great Jewish commentator Rashi says it’s meant to imply that seeing the giants caused people to faint in dread.

So basically, this self-styled “America’s Rabbi” (heaven knows I never heard of him before now) is not saying that giants are aborted fetuses, but that there is some divine significance to the close relationship of the words. Such a thing is not unheard of in Orthodox Jewish teachings, as we believe that the Hebrew language is holy, and there’s no such thing as coincidence. I’m a bit skeptical about his conclusion, as the Torah says nothing about the subject of abortion per se, but it certainly does emphasize the sacredness of life, so who knows…?

[Khadaji]

It is threads like these that keep me coming back here. Will this knowledge ever affect my life? Likely not, but I enjoy these discussions anyway.

[Keeve]

Ditto what cmkeller said.

It’s not unusual for a language to have two words which have the same root but totally different meanings. [… Looking around the room for ideas …] For instance, bread is a staple food, but you wouldn’t put it in a stapler.

[Jackmannii]

Sorry, but I’m not rooting for the San Francisco Aborted Fetuses, even if they get rid of Barry Bonds.

[An_Arky]

heh. I was going to say it sounds like the rabbi is an Iggles fan…

[Scuba_Ben]

@Noone Special

IMHO there is no reason to believe the writers of the Biblical text were thinking of aborted fetuses when they used or coined the word Nephilim

In my decidedly non-professional opinion, the reference to the Nephilim is potentially a holdover from a pre-Biblical text.

I’d be interested in hearing Zev’s position on this verse.

But definitely, the rabbi in question is drawing unsupported conclusions.

[Inigo_Montoya]

@Noone Special

The root NPL refers to the action of “falling” or “causing to fall”; I’ve always taken Nephilim to mean, roughly, “Fallen Ones” – the notion of Angels Fallen from Grace comes from this text, I believe. The singular is Naphil.

The giants are offspring of the fallen angels and human wimmins. I seem to recall that their paternity precluded their having a heavenly soul–they did have spirits, but they were bound to Earth and not to Heaven–and when the giants died their souls remained on Earth as the demons (“devil” referring to the fallen angels themselves).

Given that, the giants would be born destined to “not rise” (I’m really fighting off the urge to insert a leavening joke here), or if you will, “born fallen” and hence spiritually “unviable.” Would that sense fit the spirit of “NPL?”

[vetbridge]

Idunno. They Might Be Aborted Fetuses lacks something.

[bordelond]

While we’re here … what is the Modern Hebrew word for the noun “giant” (meaning "man or being of great stature)?

For instance, how would “Andre the Giant” be rendered in Hebrew? Or “The Jolly Green Giant”

[Cervaise]

@Mangetout

Anyway, how would aborted fetuses become ‘mighty men of old’?

Hard work?

[Noone_Special]

Double

[Noone_Special]

@bordelond

While we’re here … what is the Modern Hebrew word for the noun “giant” (meaning "man or being of great stature)?

For instance, how would “Andre the Giant” be rendered in Hebrew? Or “The Jolly Green Giant”

The most common word in Hebrew for “giant” is Anak [ענק]

So, “Andre the Giant” would be “Andre ha-anak” [אנדריי הענק]

We don’t do Jolly Green Giant brand preserves here, so no idea about that one… Ha-anak ha-yarok ha-same’akh, I guess.

[chappachula]

@bordelond

While we’re here … what is the Modern Hebrew word for the noun “giant” (meaning "man or being of great stature)?

For instance, how would “Andre the Giant” be rendered in Hebrew? Or “The Jolly Green Giant”

In modern Hebrew, the word for giant is “Anak”.
So the jolly green would be “ha-Anak ha-yarok ha-sameach”, but that sounds very awkward in Hebrew. (Imagine saying in English: “the tall man who is green and happy”).

Some things just don’t translate well.

On the other hand, some things don’t translate at all.
For example, Hebrew has a neat two-word greeting, (often used by religious people): “Tizkeh lemitzvot”. Two simple words in Hebrew, but the only way to translate it into English is an entire awkard sentence: “Be well, and I hope you continue to have the pleasure of being able to do good deeds and have a meaningful life”.
Yeah, right,… I think I’ll say that next time I walk past the greeter at Walmart.

(edited to add: “yay for me”–my first simulpost!"

[Alessan]

In more general terms, *Nephilim * has basically the same meaning as “titans” in English - not just giants, but ancient, powerful, semi-divine and possibly tragic giants. For instance, Israel’s founders - David Ben-Gurion, Haim Weizman, Golda Meir - are often referred to as the “*Nephilim * Generation”.

Anyway, I didn’t know nephel (plural: nephalim) was an actual Talmudic word for aborted fetus, but it makes sense. I’m familiar with the term from a military context, where it can mean either “unexploded ordnance” or “training course (usually Flight School) drop-out”; you can see where the euphamism came from.