Race and emotional baggage

This is a great thread and all the responses have been very interesting. I expected it to be the usual instance of people falling all over themselves to talk about how they love everyone and don’t see color, yada yada yada.

I think I relate most to Grossbottom’s sentiments; I just don’t care much about anyone’s oppression. I mean, I suppose I do on an intellectual level, but in real time, today, I care about being able to pay my damned mortgage and keep the lights on.

I’m also a bit sick of all the hyphenated - American stuff, but that may be because I’m adopted and don’t know my ethnic origins. I consider myself caucasian since my adoptive family is white and it’s a safe bet that one of my bio parents is white, but I can pass for any number of ethnicities. Either way, it’s never been an issue that I relate to.

I think, as an American of very little American family background, I can relate to your POV on insider-outsider relations a lot better than what seems to be the typical American structure of white/black/Latino/Asian segregation. It’s tough to convince a lot of Americans that I truly don’t notice someone’s background unless keys like accents, cultural affectations, mannerisms/manner protocol, or an exceptionally “unusual” appearance comes up. It’s also tough to really voice that for me, as there are few people who take me seriously when I ask about [visually] where one “race” stops and another begins.

Iceland’s got some issues with immigrants/guestworkers of Slavic background these days. They’re also not generally making any effort to assimilate or learn the two languages most commonly spoken, and are bringing drugs into the country and causing more crime than Icelanders are used to. I hear about it from my mother, who keeps in touch with her Icelandic friends; they’re all dismayed about the situation, and it seems like the government may eventually kick the guestworkers out if the problems get bad enough.
Okay, to my background: My mom’s from Iceland and my dad’s side is half Jewish and half Finnish and came over to the US in the early 20th century. My dad grew up in rural New England and was out of the country for a good portion of the 1960s. My mom came over in 1969, and they ended up settling down in Florida in the 1970s. The neighborhood they moved into slowly changed from a white tract housing neighborhood to a poorer neighborhood of mixed races by the time I came around. I had black and Latino friends in the neighborhood, but most of my classmates during elementary school were white. During middle school, we had more ethnic diversity, and I was friends with a mixture of races; however, I hadn’t really ever gone to school with Asian kids until high school, but I could generally relate to most of the people I encountered in school. Growing up, I had a hard time distinguishing American rules of “race”, but noticed that I was straddling cultures: I never quite had the same background as my white friends, but I didn’t totally understand all the nuances of the Icelanders that made up most of my mom’s social circle. I did, however, pick up most of my cultural cues from these Icelandic family friends, so I am still trying to catch up on bits of American culture that I didn’t learn in childhood. It took a few years of me dating my fiancé before his Midwestern mom stopped having culture shock from hearing about some of the household norms in my family.

I don’t really understand why “white guilt” should apply to me. The people and events that happened before the equal rights movements started don’t fill much of a space within my family culture, and my ancestors really hadn’t had anything to do with oppression of blacks in the US. If anything, my “privilege” is determined by my socioeconomic status, not the color of my skin. I don’t see much representation of what I consider “my people” (Scandinavians) in the history I learned in school* and I feel a bit like a child without a homeland sometimes. I wouldn’t fit in exceptionally well in Iceland (I’d have to relearn the language and get used to the changes in cultural norms from two decades ago), and I don’t quite fit in with American culture exceptionally well either.

I’m now living in an area that’s a bit strange for me. There are more Hispanic people than everyone else, and most of the white people are more “old southern culture” than the “northerners who migrated south” that I grew up with. I don’t quite “get” southern culture in the same way that I don’t get some of Hispanic culture, but at least I don’t get the stink eye if I’m the lone non-Southerner in a store. I still feel like an outsider, but it feels like a good portion of the more recent immigrants (and some of the Hispanic Americans) judge me poorly based on the fact that I am white and am not a native Spanish speaker in a majority Hispanic town. I hate dealing with impatient sighs and eye rolling if I greet someone in a shop in English, especially if I’m being polite.

[sub]*I’m 25. I was the only kid in my classes who was fully aware of Leif Eriksson, his significance, and celebrated his discovery every year as part of cultural events. I knew what my family background’s “national costume” was, and had one of my own. A lot of my peers didn’t seem to have an “ethnic background” per se; I think part of what made me awkward among my peers is that I wasn’t just another WASP who ate bologna on white bread and twinkies as a regular part of my childhood. When I miss childhood foods, they’re the ethnic foods I grew up with: fisklummur, kleinur, open faced sandwiches with “weird” ingredients, “fruitcake”, lamb, fish with boiled potatoes and cream sauce, and pönnokókur.[/sub]

I grew up in South Florida as well. It’s a strange place to live, and even stranger to grow up in. I transitioned from living in a not-so-nice neighborhood where we were the minority as whites in my early childhood to living surrounded by snowbirds and younger families and having more exposure to Jewish culture than anything else in high school.
I still have my own prejudices, but it’s more based on what I consider rude behavior than appearances. I don’t outright hate any ethnic group because I got tired of it from others in childhood. I do, however, get annoyed at small subsets of cultures that exemplify the stereotypes; after all, they’re people who exhibit annoying behavior and make the rest of “their group” look bad in the process.

I once heard someone say, “America isn’t so much a melting pot as it is a stew pot. The pieces never really quite mix, but they all, sooner or later, start tasting like each other.”

I rather liked that. I think it works. And I like to think, in my democracy of one, that the shared flavor, the thing we can’t quite define but permeates all, is the America and the American culture.

I think we’d all do ourselves a tremendous service if we stopped trying to have a monolithic AMERICAN culture. Each time a new ethnicity has been added to America… it’s had a chance to learn from us - and we from them. If we allowed ourselves to.

But sometimes, that’s a horribly big if.

Please! History is rife with racism and change-challenges the world over…

Thank you for telling your story.

I think that one of the active issues in America is that a minority (or minorities) appear to be taking some of the same stand you characterize. Not trying to assimilate. Not trying to adapt. But seeming to insist that the nation adapt to them.

I’m not saying I agree with that perception here in America. I am saying I can see why some people feel that way.

I do think we tend to confuse racism for a different form of distinction that just happens to cut closely along race lines. And then guilt kicks in.

My two cents…

Incidentally so far this has so far been more about confession than a full sharing of experience. I’m curious about those who aren’t dealing with so much guilt as they are anger. I’m curious what we do from here?

How do we change? It seems that the more we form a WE the better we as any entity (nation, world, humanity, family, etc) will fare. Less infighting and more productive uses of energy seem like a slam dunk. How do we get there?

I’m not trying to change the topic, or end the stories… I’m trying to say there’s more out there to this… and I’m interested in a full spectrum of answers.

I’m betting you’re getting confessions of guilt rather than anger because guilt is a lot less stigmatizing to reveal.

Kinda telling, iddn’t it?

Almost a microcosm.

We can do better than this (humanity, that is) can’t we? Even just a smidge?

I somewhat agree with this, but I think feeling “guilty” is part of the problem. People are too afraid to say / ask what’s on their mind for fear that they’ll look evil. We’re all too quick to admit that noticing differences and fearing or mistrusting them is all part of human nature, but we stop ourselves short from exposing our personal take on it.

How do we solve it? Heck if I know. Threads like this are a start, but even in the hallowed halls of The Dope, discussing race is risky. Any innocent question born of a true quest for knowledge can be twisted around. It’s as if we want to know and be undersood, but we don’t want anyone to really say what’s on their mind.

Looking back over the years, I haven’t had close friends who weren’t white, but I’ve had many co-workers that I became fairly close to. I remember I worked with a black girl who once told me she liked me; I didn’t act “white”. Did that offend me? Hell no. It made me grin form ear to ear. Why that should be, I don’t know. It didn’t even occur to me to be offended. I just dug that she came out and said what she thought. Another place I worked had a hispanic majority. I went to a couple of their parties. I wasn’t familiar with some of the food or the music and they all good naturedly teased me. I can’t say I loved it or that it would be my choice of cuisine or music, but no one cared, nor did they pretend that we didn’t have differences. What the hell is so wrong about aknowledging our different cultures and asking questions?

I would welcome anyone of any ethnicity to “ask the white girl” any question that comes to their mind, as one co-worker did when she wanted to know why we wear white underwear under white clothing when our skin isn’t really “white”. She thought that was hillarious and after I thought about it, I agreed (and now wear nude underwear when I wear white).

My turn. With some anger, in fact.

I grew up, until I was 13 years old, in Great Falls, Montana. I think I saw 2 black kids my entire childhood. I changed schools a lot, so if there were more, I would have seen them.
My grandmother was pretty heavily involved with the Native American Center, and 2 of her (foster) kids were indian, so I got to see quite a bit of that. Went to a pow-wow or two in my time. But other than knowing of the financial problems facing a lot of indians, and the alcohol issues, I never really thought of them as different. After all, my grandmother (for all her awesomeness) was just as much an alcoholic. And I was poor.

When I was 13, I moved to California to live with my dad. In the airport I was suddenly struck by the incredible diversity.

But at the same time, and for most of my teen years, I had a visceral reaction to “others”, usually black folks. When I was 17, a friend and I got jumped by some black guys who confused us for someone else. For a while, I was furious, as we had tried to explain that we weren’t the guys, but since we wore the same sort of clothes as their targets, we got the hits (well, my friend did. I managed to not get any, actually). I was bitter, and angry.

As an adult, I have worked with blacks, asians, and numerous other races. One of my best friends is Phillipino, and I had a several year long relationship with a lovely Chinese girl.

The thing is, I still have this frission of distrust, of fear, anytime I am put in a social situation with a black person. But I try to overcome it, and am almost always successful, if the person will let me.

I’m doing my best to make sure my kids know that people are people. But I know it’s not gonna be easy.

I have baggage too. Don’t know where it falls on the guilty to angry spectrum, but I’ll share anyway.

Growing up, I saw both sides of the race coin.

Being home meant being around black people, whether they be family, neighbors, and church folks. My parents, particularly my mother, were especially grounded in black culture. We had African prints on the wall, and the shelves were filled with African American literature and commentary. I was raised to be black and proud, which meant everything from knowing who Harriet Tubman was to being somewhat distrustful of white people.

But I was bussed to school across town, to the “white side”, where the schools were supposedly superior to the schools in my own neighborhood. Overall, the experience was positive. I made both white and black friends and never experienced any overt racism. But around 9 or 10, for inexplicable reasons, I started developing a bit of racial self-loathing. I envied the white kids for living close to school and for being in the gifted class (which almost all of them were). It seemed to me that their lives were more interesting than mine–that if we were all characters in a TV show, they would be the stars while the rest of us would be in the background. I felt that there was something shameful about being black, but I wouldn’t have been able to articulate it. My elementary school once had an “international day”, and my mother wanted me to wear a skirt she’d brought back from Kenya. I didn’t want to because I didn’t want to “be” African and stick out from the crowd. I liked my white dolls more than the black ones. When I drew people, they were white (and usually male).

Self-segregation happened in middle school. I aligned myself with the kids who rode my school bus, who were black, but I was still friendly with the white kids in my classes. I continued to see contrasts in white and black kids’ lives. The “honors” classes were filled with white kids, while the remedial classes were dominated by black kids. While I managed to make it to the honors classes, a couple of times I was “mistakenly” placed on the remedial track. I think those “mistakes” did a number on my psyche, but it would take years for me to realize this.

The reoccuring theme of my educational career was that to be young, black, and high-achieving meant being alone. There weren’t a lot of black kids in the AP classes I took in high school, and though I attended university smackdab in the middle of one of the “blackest” cities in the country, I was to be one of only a few black students there. The administrators charged with helping us black students matriculate put heavy pressure on us to succeed, because failure reflected on “all of us”. So when I failed an organic chemistry test, not only did I have to worry about my GPA, but I had to worry about the stereotypes I was fulfilling. Meanwhile, I attended classes with white kids who’d never interacted with blacks before. Classroom discussions were sometimes interesting. I’m sure some of my classmates felt I had an “angry black woman” persona. But I never experienced anything overt or hostile. Just misunderstandings. Which I what still encounter today.

I guess if I had to describe how I feel about race, I’d say I mostly feel tired. I’m tired of the loneliness I feel when I attend a conference and stick out like a sore thumb. I’m tired of my own irrational shame when I hear a new statistic, when I’m watching the news, or when I’m driving down certain parts of town. I’m tired of being paranoid and worried and afraid, and I’m also tired of the people who give me cause to be that way. I’m tired of being torn all the time–having to decide whether race really matters or whether it’s just an illusion, something that we could imagine away if we tried hard enough.

But I’m still the proud black woman my parents raised me to be. I love white people, but no longer do I feel that their lives are better or more worthy than mine. So I guess I’ve already lost some baggage. Perhaps there’s hope for all of us.

Anecdotal, but interesting…

I’d like to thank the recent posts for being willing to take a chance. I’m sorry the thread fell a bit quiet with poor timing. Posting here, particularly about anger, is brave.

Just today I was talking with my kids about race and race roles as stereotyped and some of the dynamics (they just came home from their mom’s). (Happy to have them home :slight_smile: )…

I want to think that race shouldn’t matter. Right now my kids still have friends of all races - Asian, white, and a few black friends. Unfortunately many of the black friends have adopted a trend line towards “keeping it realz yo.” And that worries me. It’s not usually a good model.

I do have a general question - is pride in one’s race really helpful? (That’s an honest question) I’m content and happy with me. Would I change my race? Probably not. Would it bother me to change it - I don’t think so.

Identity stuff is so interesting and damning… if I identify as white, somehow… the injustices of the white community get spread onto me. I’d think the same works for other races. But I didn’t do it. And I can even patently condemn what happened or happens. Yet, it’s like a worm, isn’t it?

Do we need a new frame? What would happen if we greeted everyone with a smile and a cheerful word? Would that help? I know I’ve found it does. Say hi, wish well on departure, smile, engage the eyes with respect… and y’know… you’re close to gold…

Wow. What a kick in the gut. :frowning:

Well - not arrogance, and all that. That part’s not helpful. But embracing it is healthy, I think.

Works for me. And, it seems as though there is more of that going around - I’m liking it.

Speaking of things as they are here, it seems to me as though Mississippi has long had two societies. (Caveat: I don’t pretend to speak for all Mississippians, just lil’ ol’ me). It certainly seemed strange to me as a child that the black people I knew had this other, mysterious, life which was closed to me. The two societies touched and intertwined in places, but just enough to keep each bunch from truly knowing each other (masks, and all that).

Slowly but surely the worm is turning. It certainly is nice to see social events become diversified - weddings, funerals, sunday school. People attending because they want to, not because it’s “politically correct”. Getting past just “my black friend at school” to “my best friend who happens to be black”. And mixed-race couples don’t raise an eyebrow so much anymore. We seem to be getting along better and becoming more involved in each others’ lives. Or maybe I’m just an optimist. :wink:

Ok, I’ll be honest - I don’t understand “racial pride” any more than I understand being proud of your eye color. Neither one is something you had any control over. Neither one is an achievement of yours.

To me, racial pride is a very close cousin to racial intolerance, and I’m not always certain there’s any difference at all. If you say you’re proud to be x, that also communicates to me that you think I’m bad, or at least less good, for not being x. And, again, in a area over which I have no control. That seems antagonistic and hateful to me.

I’m proud of my weight loss. I’m proud of my writing skill. I’m proud that my daughter says “please” and “thank you” and earns smiles from restaurant staff because she’s both adorable (some of my doing) and polite (my doing). I’m not proud of my very pretty blue eyes, because I did nothing for them except avoid poking them out with a stick. I’m not proud of being white or of German ancestry because I had nothing to do with that. Were my German ancestors great inventors and engineers? Sure! I don’t have to go to far back for that, my German descent American grandfather has hundreds of patents to his name for things that are in widespread use today. But, again, I had nothing to do with that - it’s not a source of pride for me because it has nothing to do with me. I’m pleased for him because of his accomplishments, but I have no pride because I share his DNA or his family line.

On the flip side is racial guilt. My father’s family has been in the US for a very, very long time. Odds are good some of them owned slaves. But, again, I had nothing to do with that. My father had nothing to do with that. Perhaps one of my great grandparents lynched a black man or threw stones at a black girl trying to get to school - I have no idea. But, again, I had nothing to do with that! Why should I bear any guilt for the past deeds of my ancestors? I get angry when it’s suggested that people alive today should apologize for wrongs done by our grandfather’s fathers. (Reparations are a more difficult matter - I acknowledge that some of the economic disparity between the races may be a direct result of our grandfather’s father’s actions, and am not entirely opposed to finding ways to redress those wrongs.)

There’s my anger, and it’s directly related to my fear. “Racial pride” scares me, and pisses me off.

I can identify with this, but feel more irrationally upset and angry than ashamed. It wasn’t always this way, but I now worry that I’ll turn into some rambling Bill Cosby When there’s a news story on some horrible crime, the thought “I hope it wasn’t a black person” comes right after “whoa, that’s really terrible.” I spent a lot of time visiting three hospitals a few months ago. The inner city hospital had the most unprofessional staff of them all. Similar worries about these people’s behavior causing people to pre-judge **me ** cropped up. I find myself wanting to grab people and and scream “What is wrong with you? Is this really how you want other people to see you?” Then I feel guilty, because who am I to decide I know what’s best for other people’s lives? My issues shouldn’t be their problem. Then I start getting angry that there’s even a possibility that people will judge me because of what others do. Why does a stupid white guy get to be a “stupid guy”, but a stupid black guy is either “stupid black guy” or worse?

Then, I find myself angry at people who seem to think that the behavior and plight of others is somehow *my * problem just because we’re the same race. What makes you any (general you) less morally obligated to fix things? Why isn’t it everyone’s responsibility?

These things just bring on shame, because I know I’m guilty of pre-judging people too.

That’s the thing, in my opinion… Pride in one’s race, I think, is intended to inoculate against shame… but what it really does is bind you to ALL of the baggage of the past.

I’m not the guy down the street. I’m not the guy who cut you off in traffic. I’m not my grandfather - or his grandfather. I’m me. And my identity isn’t based on my race - I don’t think. I’m me. I enjoy being me. And all I can answer for is me. I might be legally responsible for the action of my kids still… but I really don’t see that being an issue.

And in all of this, imo, I think people DO treat people more as individuals than many suspect. I have my stereotypes - and y’know… I can support them. But they aren’t race based. They’re culture based. Every race has winners and losers. Every one of 'em. And winners cluster with winners, and losers tend to cluster with losers.

Some men, some women, some whites, some blacks, some Native Americans, some anyone… feel entitled and like the world owes them. Irony is that mindset gets you LESS than a different one. Each category mentioned earlier has some very distinct winners. There are heroes in EVERY category. If you think I’m making a racist point here… there is a significant white population that feels entitled… it gets on my last nerve.

I’d go so far as to say the demographic groups that have had the hardest times tend to have the most compelling heroes. That hardship produces something… entirely unique.

Anyhow… had a good conversation with the girlfriend/fiance yesterday. It was on this topic - we both have biracial kids (though different racial mixes).

It’s just too easy to feel racist for noticing that one subset of a race is acting like a fool. Again - every race has idiots of many hues (bigots, losers, entitled people, lazy oafs, horrid parents, etc). And y’know… when I judge a person who happens to be one race or the other - not on the basis of their skin, but on the content of their character (nods to MLK Jr)… that’s not racist. It’s just common sense.

Drawing the line between common sense as common sense and common sense as rationalization for racism… that’s harder. But I think we know it when we see it. No?

We’re individuals, dammit. And as individuals - y’know… people are pretty damn cool - once you get to know them.

I think the problem is that for some people there’s not much room between noticing the idiots, and assuming other people from the same race/culture are more likely than average to be idiots too. You (general you, again) might not treat them any differently, but you’re already thinking the worst, on some level. I don’t think being colorblind is possible or even a good thing, but I do worry if I find myself thinking “that ___ guy is a loser” where the blank would contain a race*, or ethnicity instead of leaving the blank out all together. I’d never fill in the blank with a hair color or shoe size, and if race or ethnicity shouldn’t matter, they should be just as inappropriate to stick in that blank spot.

*Honestly though, I didn’t know if I should participate in this thread because my baggage is more cultural than racial. I was raised in an area that wasn’t very multicultural or racially mixed. I wasn’t in the majority race-wise, but was culture- wise. I’ve had to struggle with my classist upbringing. The inner city, for example, and the people who lived there were scary and dangerous, and if we had to go there, it was not a fun, relaxing experience. I’m still not comfortable with their culture, and have to stop myself from stereotyping people from those areas/backgrounds.

I grew up in a small town of 15,000. Up until grade 10 ('86) there were no black people in the town. Then a black family moved in. A mom, dad, two daughters, and one son. The mom was the librarian at the school and all three of the kids went there, too.

So suddenly there were four black people at the school. A really odd thing happened. All three were instantly the most popular kids in the whole school. The daughters were gorgeous and exotic looking. The son was just a regular looking kid and a little dorky, but he was still super popular.

Looking back as an adult I know now that the only reason they were so popular is because they were black.

I’ve often wondered if they knew that at the time. I wonder if it made them sad. As a kid all you want is to be cool and popular. It might have been kind of like a double edged sword for them. I don’t know.

It was kind of like racism in bizzaro-world, but it was still racism.

Anyway, just something I’ve wondered about over the years.

I’d like to think as race lines blur and people of similar beliefs group more by values and attitudes and with less of the artificial race thing… some of that stuff will ebb. It, like many things, becomes a chicken and the egg problem, but the trend lines seem to be going the right way overall.

I dunno, I’ve liked what you’ve had to say so far. I’ve met some people from inner city areas and some are quite fine people. Some of them - I admire quite a lot. Others are rather caught up in self-defeating thinking or activity.

The trick here, I suppose, is that everyone has some… vice or crutch. It’s simply that some crutches are more obviously problematic than others. So… they’re more easily spotted. I’m not really sure that my suburban friends are all that much “cleaner” than the inner city acquaintances… in fact sometimes it might work the other way.

The thing that bothers me most about inner city living is that the peer pressure in the school can be stronger and more detrimental. As much as I admire some people… I am baffled by their choice to raise their kids where they do. But I would never feel comfortable asking - as second guessing (or appearing to) another person’s parenting style… that’s usually a bit taboo…

Helpful for what, exactly? Getting-alongness? I don’t think it helps or hurts. Self-esteem? Sure.

I guess it depends on how you define pride. You can have pride in your own accomplishments or in the accomplishments of people you’ve helped raise. And you can also feel glad about belonging to something greater than you are. For instance, if the US right now collectively brought global warming to a complete halt, I would proud of my association with this country, even if I had done nothing to help. Is it rational? Maybe not. But is it natural? Sure.

I think the reason so many whites express discomfort in the idea of racial pride is because rarely has been white been stigmatized, at least in the same way as being black is. I can’t turn on the TV for five minutes and not see Black People Doing Wrong. I can’t read a health statistic and not find out something depressing about black people (for instance, didja know half of black girls have an STD? Nice, huh?). It was tough sitting in sociology class and being bombarded by one racial statistic after another, and feeling (perhaps imagining) every classmate’s eye on me. When I was ten years old, I wrote a story about a white fairy and her white uncle (a wizard stylized after Merlin). I could have written about black people, but for some reason, I thought white people made better, more sympathetic characters. After all, all the characters I read about in school and watched on TV were white. Why not?

Perhaps I was just a self-hating anamoly as a kid, but I don’t think so. I think most black people have gone through life wishing they could be white at least once or twice. If only so that we can fit in better. There’s nothing wrong telling a kid going through an identity crisis, “Hey, you know what? It’s pretty cool being black. Look at all the other cool black folks out there”. There’s nothing wrong stocking a kid’s bedroom with black dolls and books with black characters, and sending them to summer camp with other black kids so as to balance out their otherwise all-white lives. Nor is there anything wrong with giving a black kid an African or African-American name and encouraging them to go to a historical black college/university. All these things are ways of enstilling pride, or at least a sense of belonging to something that’s good and positive. All parents want their children to carry on their traditions proudly and gladly.

Sometimes I share the same worry that HazelNutCoffee expressed. I don’t mind if we all meld into one, but I don’t want that “one” to be homogenous. I want it to be alright to say, “I belong to __ group” without people taking offense or feeling excluded. Perhaps one day we will find group labels to be useless, but I think this should come naturally, not because someone decides that they are politically incorrect.