I’ve been struggling with this one for a while, and still can’t come up with a reason why all the so-called “white pride” groups are actually about hate. It’s not only confined to pride groups either, other races have national college funds, rallies (nonviolent ones), and student organizations–why then are whites the only ones excluded from this forging of community? Why are all white-only groups so focused on bringing the others down, whereas the other groups are interested in lifting themselves up?
Are white people inherently more hateful, or more fearful of change than other ethnic groups? If so, Why?
hrm… after a reread, the turd thinks he should state his ethnicity: I am a white, americian male, of scottish decent.
I think you’re erroneous in assuming that “The other groups are interested in lifting themselves up”.
On the contrary, I think Al Sharpton and his kind would be more than happy to bring the “white establishment” down.
The “White Pride” movement is, I think, a reflection of how sick and tired they are with the racist bullshit that invariably comes up, usually at the expense of whites.
At least I think it is now. The original KKK was a straight hate group, nothing else. The current KKK almost certainly is as well.
But some of these “separatist” groups are just doing what the Black leaders have advocated for Blacks since the 60’s. They’re choosing to live the way they want to, away from the racism bullshit. There’s nothing inherently “evil” about that.
The problem, IMO, lies in the bad seeds that are found in any group. Hell, not even ALL the Nazis were bad. Just most. They give the “separatist” movements a bad name. The movies showing the redneck, hillbilly, noteeth racists and passing them off as normal don’t help, either.
And for the record, I can’t think of a more racist group of people than the blacks. It’s always racist if it doesn’t go their way. That really makes me sick. Most times it’s not racist. It’s justice. They never seem to understand that.
No ethnicity or whatever is inherently anything in re these sorts of questions.
Since this is about America:
Quite simply because of history. Ethnic pride organizations have largely been built up around actual ethnicities (e.g. Scottish) which have felt apart or felt a need to maintain identity in the face of a larger group.
“White people” is just an amorphous thing which doesn’t describe jack, as opposed to Scottish Americans, Irish etc. WASPs such as myself of course have their DAR and Yale and so forth (heheh). Most European descended Americans therefor, when they have felt a need for this kind of group identity activity have focused on things meaningful (from ethnic to religious, e.g. Quakers).
The folks who get into “White Pride” have been more or less the David Duke racial supermecists/hate mongers.
Other “races”? It’s just black Americans – I suppose there are Asian organizations, but they’re fairly few and really something of a copy of black American ones. Of course black Americans have race based identity organizations because they haven’t really had any other choice as their root identity(ies) were effaced during slavery.
No one is “excluded” from this, if you take the blinders off you’ll see there are plenty of “white” organizations, such as for practical purposes the DAR or any number of white ethnic organizations.
Further, there’s really not much need – is there really a “white” identity versus say Anglo America or Polish…?
Think about the history of the states and it should be fairly clear. Most specific ethnic organizations have started as responses to percieved (and I suppose largely real) discrimination: Irish exclusion, of black Americans go without saying, Jews, Asians to an extent, Hispanic organizations. It’s rather hard to objectively look at “whites” as an umbrella group in such a context. In order to do so, IMHO, you have to have some rather warped views.
Of course not. Simply a matter of history.
Ah, this is rather what I was talking about in the prior message.
The “White Pride”`movement is a bunch of racist idiots with a distorted view of reality.
Given reality rather than political rhetoric, I would differ.
Ethnic separatist movements in the context of America (present, not 1960s where I can see the seperatist reaction in some respect) is pure nonesense.
Not all Nazis were bad? By defnition, adherence to Nazi philosophy makes you bad. Not perhaps bad in the B movie sense of the evil villian dripping venom from his fangs, but evil in the ordinary, reality sense of evil.
Ah, racial thinking. I love it. “They” Brilliant thinking. I am sure the regular readers of GD can point out the falacy of composition.
Collounsbury,
You know what the problem with generalizations is? They are all subject to interpretation.
As you tear me to pieces for what you call “racial” thinking, you neglect to realize that only a couple of lines up you said “By definition, adherence to Nazi philosophy makes you bad”.
What about the man who joins the Nazi party simply to keep his nose clean, similar to the Communist party in the old USSR? Is he evil, or is he just looking out for his own self interest?
At the same time, I will be the first to recognize that not all Blacks are racists, like I intimated.
However, I would like to point you to the news over here, from Cincinatti, where as part of the appeasement process following the riots, the mayor has agreed to have talks regarding the promotion of blacks in the police force. Do they deserve promotions? Surely some do. But not in the numbers that the Black leaders would like to see. They seem to want nothing but Blacks in charge, and nothing else will do. All for what may or may not have been an intentional act of brutality by a white policeman.
I wasn’t trying to start a holy war here. I was just pointing out that not everything that happens to the Blacks is an injustice. The injustice is that that is the perception generated by the more radical black leaders and fostered by the media.
No, the problem with generalizations is people are prone to over generalizing to the point of fallacious reasoning.
Yes, and I stand by that.
One is faced with a menu of choices. Historically speaking it is quite clear one did not have to join the Nazi party – much of the German officer corp was non-Nazi for example. Being a Nazi was an active choice, either for hatred of for utter lack of morals.
The CP membership issue is a bit different insofar as all essential government functions were reserved for CPUSSR members. To the extent that CP ideology at least had uplifting aspects – although in the end both means and effects turned out to be terrible – being an adherent of Communist ideology does not strike me as inherently evil.
In either case, however, there was a moral choice to be made.
You should have done so in your original message.
As is the black pride movement. Have you never noticed that a great deal of “black pride” seems to consist of vilifying and demonizing white people?
Tsk, tsk. How ahistorical and propagandistic. In the thirties, when the National Socialist movement was growing and coming to power, many good people naively joined the Nazis without understanding what the Nazis were really up to. Lots of folks were simply sick of the political and economic chaos they saw around them, and the only real alternative to the Nazis were the Communists, who were no better than the Nazis. No, Coll, not all Nazis were evil, not even in the banal sense of evil.
But of course, good people with bad ideas can do a lot of harm.
Being proud of being white is just as odd, stupid and counterproductive as being proud of being black.
What I think is at work, however, is this: I don’t give a second thought to the color of my (white) skin. I believe the renowned, early 20th century philosopher Popeye said it best: “I yam what I yam, and that’s all what I yam.”
Blacks, however, historically in this country and elsewhere, have had to give a second thought to the color of their skin. Because they’ve found themselves being wrongly imprisoned, killed, assaulted, disallowed from certain places, and otherwise scorned because of it.
Any long-suffering group that has had to perservere through difficulties is going to develop a strong sense of identification and pride with that collective. Ask a Cubs fan.
All that said, I do feel that this country is becoming less skin-color-conscious. And I perceive that, in positions of leadership and media exposure, it appears that blacks are now more divisive about the race issue than whites. IMHO, society would be further advanced if everyone didn’t give a second thought to their skin color. That includes Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson. That’s what Martin Luther King aspired to. And it seems to have been lost somewhere along the way with many leaders.
It makes more sense to me that a person might have a sense of cultural pride about being an African American. As I might for my Irish or French Canadian ancestry.
Bullshit. Absolutely, many black leaders and black organizations have gone entirely too far. However, the basic premise of the movements cannot be any more different.
The black pride movement is based on the reality that blacks are defined by their race in this society, and that definition is usually a negative one. The premise of the black pride movement is to counteract that stereotype.
The white pride movement does not have this rationale. Instead, it says that whites are better than other races.
You been paying attention? More importantly, were these “good”, “naive” people paying attention? The Nazi movement was explicitly racialist and anti-Semetic. No one hid this from people wishing to join the Nazi party - Mein Kampf was published 8 years before Hitler was named Chancellor. The “good Nazis” you refer to either knew or should have known the Nazi ideology, and joined anyway. That’s evil in the banal sense - “well, the group I’m joining is bad, but that doesn’t affect me.” Of course it does.
And of course there were other alternatives besides the Communists. The fact that liberal democracy was on the ropes in Weimar Germany is not an excuse not to support it.
Hmm, seperatist groups are just trying to get away from the racism in our society. Well, if avoiding racism is their goal (white groups or black groups), then there should be no problem admitting into their membership members of other races. After all, the whole point is getting away from racism, so their seperatist groups should only have the renunciation of racism as their admission criteria. Right, Airman Doors? Or is there, just possibly, something inherently racist in seperatist groups?
Sua
I’m 100% Irish (far as I know, anyway), so I’m definitely white. So are Jonas Salk, Vanilla Ice, Timothy McVeigh, Yuri Gagarin, Wolfgang Puck, Carrot Top, George W. Bush, Rodney Dangerfield, Slobodan Milosevic, Rick Rockwell and Arnold Palmer. I admire some of those men, hate others, and couldn’t care less about the rest- but what the heck do they have in common, apart from being “white”? Am I supposed to share some bond with them???
When Yuri Gagarin, a white Russian (not a White Russian!) blasted into space, should I have been bursting with white pride? Or, when Timothy McVeigh killed hundreds of innocent people, should I have been ashamed of the “white race”? Of course not!
Now, even my Irish heritage isn’t THAT meaningful. Oh, if I see an Irish athlete at the Olympics, I may root for him (without knowing ANYTHING about him!), but that’s about the extent of my Irish pride. I happen to think ethnic pride in general is overrated. And if “Irish pride” is overrated, “white pride” is meaningless… EXCEPT as a slap at blacks.
Meaning that, in general, “white pride” IS about hate!
First off, white pride is no less meaningful than black pride. That is, both are pretty damned pointless. Why be proud of something over which you have no control whatsoever? One might as well be proud of being left-handed, or having large ears.
That being said, I can understand the need to belong. “Whites” are a very diverse group, so much so that the term sometimes seems meaningless. The same could be said about “blacks”. Yet finding pride for belonging to either group (pointless or not) gives many people a sense of belonging, which is a good thing.
“White pride” is not inherently racist, although most “white pride” groups are racist.
Okay, so you admit there’s a lot of racism in the black pride movement.
You man white people aren’tdefined by their race? You mean that racial stereotypes about whites don’t exist? You mean to say that such stereotypes about whites don’t harm them in any way? Have you ever been beaten just for being a white person passing through a black neighborhood?Have you ever had a group of black teenagers follow you for two or three blocks shouting things like “You racist motherfucker!” and “Come back here so we can kick your white ass”? I have. Do you not believe that stereotyping all whites as racists is a very serious matter?
Lately the premise of the black pride movement seems to be to generate money and political power for sleazeballs like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.
Not long ago, I came across a book which basically claimed to prove that all whites are psychopaths. And that’s only one example. There are plenty of blacks who believe their race to be superior. I see no reason whatsoever to assume that black racism is any less prevalent among blacks than white racism is among whites.
And the Communists were explicitly anti-middle class and anti-rich. The Left was calling for violent revolution, and they seemed to have the numbers and enough foreign backing to pull it off. What is more, Stalin had already committed some of his worst atrocities, and there was widespread knowledge of this in the West. Many people in Germany had good reason to fear a Communist takeover. Class hatred is no prettier than race hatred.
**
Oh, bullshit. Mein Kampf was the most bought and least read book in Germany. How many people in any political party or movement are well-acquainted with its literature and philosophy? How many Commnists in the 30’s had actually read Das Kapital? How many Americans of that era had actually read the Constitution and The Federalist Papers? And of all the ones who did read these things, how many understood them properly? Were the people who joined or affiliated themselves with the Nazi party primarily to promote their careers or because they saw the Nazis as the only alternative to an even worse choice somehow more evil than the ones who have grabbed on to the Communists, the Republicans or the Democrats for similar reasons? I’m immensely skeptical of that.
ROTFLMAO!!!
Oh, bullshit again. The center wasn’t simply on the ropes; it had disintegrated completely. The only question was whether the Nazis or the Communists were going to pick up the pieces.
Okay, so you admit there’s a lot of racism in the black pride movement.
You man white people aren’t defined by their race? You mean that racial stereotypes about whites don’t exist? You mean to say that such stereotypes about whites don’t harm them in any way? Have you ever been beaten just for being a white person passing through a black neighborhood?Have you ever had a group of black teenagers follow you for two or three blocks shouting things like “You racist motherfucker!” and “Come back here so we can kick your white ass”? I have. Do you not believe that stereotyping all whites as racists is a very serious matter?
Lately the premise of the black pride movement seems to be to generate money and political power for sleazeballs like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.
Not long ago, I came across a book which basically claimed to prove that all whites are psychopaths. And that’s only one example. There are plenty of blacks who believe their race to be superior. I see no reason whatsoever to assume that black racism is any less prevalent among blacks than white racism is among whites.
And the Communists were explicitly anti-middle class and anti-rich. The Left was calling for violent revolution, and they seemed to have the numbers and enough foreign backing to pull it off. What is more, Stalin had already committed some of his worst atrocities, and there was widespread knowledge of this in the West. Many people in Germany had good reason to fear a Communist takeover. Class hatred is no prettier than race hatred.
**
Oh, bullshit. Mein Kampf was the most bought and least read book in Germany. How many people in any political party or movement are well-acquainted with its literature and philosophy? How many Commnists in the 30’s had actually read Das Kapital? How many Americans of that era had actually read the Constitution and The Federalist Papers? And of all the ones who did read these things, how many understood them properly? Were the people who joined or affiliated themselves with the Nazi party primarily to promote their careers or because they saw the Nazis as the only alternative to an even worse choice somehow more evil than the ones who have grabbed on to the Communists, the Republicans or the Democrats for similar reasons? I’m immensely skeptical of that.
ROTFLMAO!!!
Oh, bullshit again. The center wasn’t simply on the ropes; it had disintegrated completely. The only question was whether the Nazis or the Communists were going to pick up the pieces.
I said it before. Racists do exist within the separatist movement. I concede that willingly.
However, if you had the option of a)Being accused of racism and bigotry every time something happened to a minority, and b)Not being accused of the same, which would you choose?
Do you consider the Black separatist movement to be racist? I sure as hell do.
Is it not also possible that the current political atmosphere encourages racism? The Black leaders are attacking anyone who happens to be white in order to further their political goals. IMO, that does not serve to further their cause. It just pisses people off. That, I think, is how racism is spread for the most part anymore, through anger.
Also, again about generalizations, I was thinking. Nobody has any objection to white people being stigmatized collectively as bad people by the Black leaders. But I say anything about Blacks in general and I’m a bad person, a racist. Why is that?
Somewhere down the road a compromise will have to be reached between the races. Unless we all suddenly have a change of heart and start seeing each other for what we really are, people, the racial problems in this country will never end. And I think that’s a damn shame.
The double standard here is exquisite. Compare this
with this
So Airman Doors believes we can’t label the white separatist “movement” as racist because only some individual members are racist. But it’s oaky to label the black separatist movement as racist without first inquiring into the individual motives of the members. Yep, makes sense to me. :rolleyes:
Do you live in some weird alternate reality where people sit around in bars talking about how much they love the racial theories of Louis Farrakhan? Where Al Sharpton is widely respected for his commitment to civilized discourse and sensitive approach to racial reconciliation? If not, what the hell are you talking about?
Because people who make blanket statements about racial groups are bad people and racists. The fact that there are bad people and racists within the targeted racial group in no way excuses your own bigotry.
Sir, I can state for the record that at no time in my life has anyone of any race accused me of being racist. And I don’t life in a white separatist commune.
The way I avoid the horrible choice you present here is by not being racist. If you are continually, often, or even occasionally faced with this choice, perhaps you should look to your own actions and ask “why am I accused of racism?”
As for the rest of your post, I defer to the wise statements of Minty Green, even though, as an attorney, he’s probably a Jew. :rolleyes:
Sua
Whatever else I am, I am a human being first, and my primary interest is in other human beings.
I have a problem with anybody who puts anything before being a human.
The distinction between Irish, German, Italian etc. is interesting.
Reminds me - when I was in college, there were clubs for Japanese, Chinese, etc.
There was also an Asian students club - sort of an umbrella organization, I suppose.
I imagine that once whites are a minority, which will probably be pretty soon, you’ll see more mainstream “white pride” type organizations.
And I suppose that “whites” have a lot to be proud of (and a lot to be ashamed of)
For better or worse, whites run the world and should keep in mind the heavy responsibility they bear.
Ok…there isn’t nessicarily a problem in being proud of who you are, it just depends on what type of pride it is. If you are just happy that you are you and unashamed of it, then that’s all good. The problem is with people who are proud of their immagined racial superiority. If you’re proud that you’re white and better then anyone not so then there may be a problem. I just saw a special on HBO on the whole Christian Identity thing and their use of the internet to recuruit “lone wolves”. These people think that their racial group is better then all others (who they regard as either sinners or sub-human). As a result, many of these people don’t hesitate to hurt or kill these people outside of their ethnic group. This is clearly a product of “White Pride” though not nessicarily a result of it.