Race relations in America-What can I do?

[holmes]

@Contrapuntal

I had hoped that holmes and Askia, two fellows whom I respect and have jousted with in the past, would have some helpful comments, but it appears that is not to be the case.

Be careful what you wish for.

**Contrapuntal ** Finally a little time. First off, I wasn’t really refering to individuals, but the country at large when I mentioned learning the steps. I mean, we should know by now what to expect when disaster strikes people living in the pockets of poverty we still have in this country. Secondly we shouldn’t be surprised at how the media is portraying the victims of it, we’ve witnessed it enough times.

So I was amazed at how many posters seemed a. surprised, b. denied it and b. were so quick to start calling people animals and recommend shooting them for looting…as if THEY wouldn’t do the same thing if trapped in cesspool. Sure taking TVs and other crap was stupid and greedy, but I don’t think it inhuman and worthy or death considering a. the level of poverty and b. that they didn’t really realized how dangerous the situation was and I bet many of them now wished they grabbed cans of beans instead of those iPods.

So, how do you like being a black man? I’m serious, because that feeling you have, that wound you feel, if what many “minorities” live with every day, but is routinely ignored, mocked and downplayed by even critical thinking members of this very board and the country at large.

It hurts doesn’t it? Even though you know you’re not what that guy called you, it still stings, doesn’t it? And that’s the thing I feel people don’t understand, I don’t know if it’s a lack of empathy or what, but I find it strange to read a thread about perceived discrimination and have it filled with naysayers waving it away as if it doesn’t happen anymore or demanding “proof”? As if these people are going to write down in a memo that they’re placing the poor kids in remedial english, without bothering to test them and while I do believe that often it’s just a matter of the person being an asshole, you will never know and that’s the cancer that still eating this country…never knowing, because once it WAS a sure thing.

I could tell you not to blame yourself, but to blame the other white people who are racists and created the environment that caused that person to treat you badly. I could tell you to stop being so soft and get a thicker skin, it’s only a name. Hell I can ever tell you stories of my grandfather, who was called much worst that than and STILL managed to pull himself up by his bootstrap or there’s other people that got called racist, why are you special? Hey that happened in the past, stop being a victim, there are any whites holding slaves anymore.

I think the “in the past, it’s over” mantras is one of biggest problems we have in this country, centuries of damage to the soul of this country doesn’t disappear with signature on a document or time. I’m a little younger than you, but older than African-Americans had the right to vote unmolested in this country. So I find it amusing when people say its been 200 hundred years, enough time’s past. What? We’re just one generation in.

New Orleans is a perfect example of how long lasting and subtle racism is.The reason the majority of those people were African-American and not white, is as much dumb luck and mismanagement, as it is past racism and the second thought that poor people, specifically poor African-Americans are given, often for generations. They got left in New Orleans because no one thought about them, which is pretty much the same way it’s always been for them. Outta sight, outta mind, don’t bother the tourists and we’ll leave you to it. Kill each other, but don’t touch one of our tourists or we’ll hunt you down.

People have the impression that their lives are of lesser value than the tourists, since the majority of tourists are white, that translates into white lives are worth more. This whole disaster simply reinforces that. It may not be true, but part of learning the steps is being able to acknowlegde the appearance of it, without dismissing it out of hand or asking for proof or a cite, when no cite may exist.

There’s a clear line between the have and have nots in New Orleans, a line that divides along race. So I don’t understand the desire to hand-wave away people’s, I think legimate concerns, especially when we’re seeing live how black people and white people are be treated differently especially by the media. I don’t understand why it easier to acknowlegde the class problem with this disaster, while at the same time downplay the racial aspect of it. I don’t think you can separate the two.

Was it racist? Not in the hood wearing, cross-burning, way no; but the reason they were there and not somewhere else is because of the how their ancestors had been treated previously. The whites live here and the blacks live there, same as they did 50 years ago, a 100 years ago. Just because they were freed from slavery, just because Jim Crow ended, just because the voting rights act passed, doesn’t mean these people still weren’t living lifes of separate but equal, clearly the equal part wasn’t up to snuff and it never is. We learned that with Brown; but here we are still with two Americas, the one that the government makes escape plans for and the other that gets the public works shut down in an hurricane and are left to their own devices.

It’s sad. That being said, it seems that people have this idea that minorities are either savages or saints. That is they’re supposed to be more than human or less than. The guy could’ve really sincerely believed that you were a racist, because in his experience only a person with a personal reason, would have a car towed. That may have been his only means of transportation, maybe he needed to get to work, to pick up his kids and that one act, may have done him great harm and why would a white man do great harm to a black person he doesn’t even know? Racism.

Now you know and I know you had no idea, whether or not he was black; but let me ask you, if you did would you have towed his car?

[Contrapuntal]

@holmes

Be careful what you wish for.

**Contrapuntal ** Finally a little time. First off, I wasn’t really refering to individuals, but the country at large when I mentioned learning the steps. I mean, we should know by now what to expect when disaster strikes people living in the pockets of poverty we still have in this country. Secondly we shouldn’t be surprised at how the media is portraying the victims of it, we’ve witnessed it enough times.

Thanks for pitching in holmes. As to point one, we have to start somewher, right? How will the country change unles individuals change? As to point two, agreed. I am not surprised, but I have a very low opinion of TV journalism, and a somewhat less low opinion of print journalsim. Slice it how you will, ratings rule the roost. Senasationalism sells.

@holmes

How do you like being a black man? I’m serious, because that feeling you have, that wound you feel, if what many “minorities” live with every day, but is routinely ignored, mocked and downplayed by even critical thinking members of this very board and the country at large.

I actually had this thiought as I was writing the OP, that being judged simply by the color of my skin was, frankly, dehumanizing. I did not include it because my few experiences are less than nothing compared to what victims of years of constant racism experience.

@holmes

doesn’t it? Even though you know you’re not what that guy called you, it still stings, doesn’t it? And that’s the thing I feel people don’t understand, I don’t know if it’s a lack of empathy or what, but I find it strange to read a thread about perceived discrimination and have it filled with naysayers waving it away as if it doesn’t happen anymore or demanding “proof”? As if these people are going to write down in a memo that they’re placing the poor kids in remedial english, without bothering to test them and while I do believe that often it’s just a matter of the person being an asshole, you will never know and that’s the cancer that still eating this country…never knowing, because once it WAS a sure thing.

I truly believe it is a lack of empathy. And to me, that is a serious condemnation of one’s character. It matters not to me *why * a person may have come to a point in his life where he cannot imagine himself in another’s shoes. In my philosophy, it is incumbent upon a person to understand that the things that make us alike are a thousandfold more numerous than the things that make us different.

@holmes

I could tell you not to blame yourself, but to blame the other white people who are racists and created the environment that caused that person to treat you badly. I could tell you to stop being so soft and get a thicker skin, it’s only a name. Hell I can ever tell you stories of my grandfather, who was called much worst that than and STILL managed to pull himself up by his bootstrap or there’s other people that got called racist, why are you special? Hey that happened in the past, stop being a victim, there are any whites holding slaves anymore.

I must have written the OP badly because, although it pissed me off to be called a tracist, my feelings were not hurt. The guy was an idiot. I just extrapolated his attitude outward and felt despair, that’s all. Hey, I’m on his side and he thinks I’m a racist.

@holmes

I think the “in the past, it’s over” mantras is one of biggest problems we have in this country, centuries of damage to the soul of this country doesn’t disappear with signature on a document or time. I’m a little younger than you, but older than African-Americans had the right to vote unmolested in this country. So I find it amusing when people say its been 200 hundred years, enough time’s past. What? We’re just one generation in.

Right.

@holmes

New Orleans is a perfect example of how long lasting and subtle racism is.The reason the majority of those people were African-American and not white, is as much dumb luck and mismanagement, as it is past racism and the second thought that poor people, specifically poor African-Americans are given, often for generations. They got left in New Orleans because no one thought about them, which is pretty much the same way it’s always been for them. Outta sight, outta mind, don’t bother the tourists and we’ll leave you to it. Kill each other, but don’t touch one of our tourists or we’ll hunt you down.

I’m beginning to think you are right, in essence, if not in the degree you mention.

@holmes

People have the impression that their lives are of lesser value than the tourists, since the majority of tourists are white, that translates into white lives are worth more. This whole disaster simply reinforces that. It may not be true, but part of learning the steps is being able to acknowlegde the appearance of it, without dismissing it out of hand or asking for proof or a cite, when no cite may exist.

Got it. Thanks.

@holmes

There’s a clear line between the have and have nots in New Orleans, a line that divides along race. So I don’t understand the desire to hand-wave away people’s, I think legimate concerns, especially when we’re seeing live how black people and white people are be treated differently especially by the media. I don’t understand why it easier to acknowlegde the class problem with this disaster, while at the same time downplay the racial aspect of it. I don’t think you can separate the two.

Neither do I.

@holmes

Was it racist? Not in the hood wearing, cross-burning, way no; but the reason they were there and not somewhere else is because of the how their ancestors had been treated previously. The whites live here and the blacks live there, same as they did 50 years ago, a 100 years ago. Just because they were freed from slavery, just because Jim Crow ended, just because the voting rights act passed, doesn’t mean these people still weren’t living lifes of separate but equal, clearly the equal part wasn’t up to snuff and it never is. We learned that with Brown; but here we are still with two Americas, the one that the government makes escape plans for and the other that gets the public works shut down in an hurricane and are left to their own devices.

I don’t know why but the phrase “Desparate but Equal” just popped into my head.

@holmes

Now you know and I know you had no idea, whether or not he was black; but let me ask you, if you did would you have towed his car?

Absofuckinglutely, but I have to confess that I would probably have towed my mother’s car. (God rest her soul) (Hyperbole). It is way beyond a peeve of mind to have my driveway blocked, for reasons we do not need to get into here. The knucklehead actaully parked farther away from his destination by blocking my driveway. He had to step into my driveway to get out of his car. No way he did not know what he was doing. He just chose not to parallell park in a space about 30 feet long, and did not give a fuck who he inconvenienced. And I had to get out. It was 6 AM, far too early to go knocking on doors looking for idiots.

Thanks for the time you have taken to respond to me. I assure you I will take your thoughts to heart.

[celestina]

Caveat: I’m punchy off of caffeine and lack of sleep, so read this post at your own risk, or not.

Contrapuntal, I applaud the dance you’ve already performed, but, hon,’ the key to learning the steps of the Race Dance in America is to learn to:

1. listen to the ever-changing, yet not really changing rhythms of the music
2. keep on keepin’ on
3. make a way out of no way

Said another way, learn to listen to people, trust your instincts, act with integrity, sing a blues song when you’re feelin’ down, and just be flexible. That’s what lots of black folks been doin’ for years. Hang in there.

Also, let me respond with a hearty Amen! to holmes’ post.

The Rhythms of the Race Dance

About New Orleans, I went down there with some business colleagues—we’re all black, highly educated, Southerners, blah, blah–and we were surprised at how black folks aren’t welcome in some restaurants and places near and around the French Quarter. Not being from there, we didn’t know where we shouldn’t go. Needless to say, we got some frosty receptions, if not downright evil-eye glares, from some local white folks patronizing those places, and we hurried up and got out of those places. I don’t remember the names of the eating establishments, and this was a few years ago, but we were surprised. This is what I call the Don’t Move Out Your Place Rhythm.

I’ve been to other Southern cities and heard of other situations from black folks where blacks and whites are treated differently in the workplace, and where blacks and whites don’t move beyond their socio-economic and cultural spheres. To do so might literally get the KKK knocking at their doors. This is what I call the Not Moving Out Your Place Rhythm.

My own personal experience, the neighborhood where I grew up used to be predominantly middle middle class white. As soon as middle middle class blacks started moving in, the white folks started moving out. By the time I was knee-high to a grasshopper, there were maybe three white families left in the neighborhood, and a church whose members are white. They were nice and neighborly, but their families eventually convinced them to move away too. Just recently, that predominantly white congregation sold the church to a predominantly black congregation, and now my neighborhood is predominantly middle middle class black. This is what I call the Exodus Rhythm, but I’m still scratching my head over why. The black folks that moved in to the predominantly white neighborhood are the same class, have families, and aspirations to go to work so they can pay their bills and eat.

While we’d like to think that racism doesn’t exist anymore, particularly because a lot of black folks have managed to gain access to education and have gravitated to middle class, upper middle class, and upper class status, there’s a very sizable and invisible low class and low middle class population of folks of color who for whatever reason have not become successful. They haven’t attained the American Dream, they’re working multiple jobs for low pay, and still living in poverty, and they don’t have the power or the means to control how the media presents or doesn’t present them. One of the fallouts of Katrina is that she blew up the ugliness of segregation and poverty that poor people of color face daily—One of the worse feelings in the world is wondering where your next meal is going to come from–and Americans, who hadn’t learned how to listen to the Invisible Poverty rhythm, were surprised and horrified when they saw it.

One of the things that really doesn’t get reported on or discussed nowadays is the ugliness of segregation in America that exists along real estate, class, and race lines. We can and do see this, but don’t necessarily understand what it means. Drive around in a lot of American cities, and you’ll know when you get to the run-down, poor sections of town, that a lot of times it’s going to be predominantly folks of color who live there, and those folks look with suspicion on anyone who doesn’t have to be there who enters. Likewise, if you see folks who don’t match the socio-economic and racial makeup of your neighborhood in your neighborhood, you’re most likely going to be suspicious too at why they’ve come. Go to church, if you do that sort of thing, and a lot of times the majority of the congregation is of the same race and probably close to your socio-economic status.

Where, then, are the opportunities for cultural interaction with folks who don’t move in the same circles as you do? This is the Changing Same rhythm, and it is the heartbeat of those ever-changing, yet not really changing rhythms I’ve been referring to in this post that we Americans need to listen to. When we can hear the rhythm and feel the beat, then it’s up to all Americans to “make a way out of no way,” get creative, get flexible, get out of denial status, and learn to dance/communicate together.

[Zoe]

holmes: …but I find it strange to read a thread about perceived discrimination and have it filled with naysayers waving it away as if it doesn’t happen anymore.

I’m afraid that I have been one of those who has thought that we were farther along in this country than we are. Maybe I have projected my own experiences too much. I apologize if I have perpetuating ignorance rather than fighting it.

One thing that I learned from my step-son. No one makes a racist comment in my presence without a negative reaction from me. I don’t have to be unpleasant or hostile. I just have to speak up so that they feel uncomfortable.

Frankly, the comments and reactions by some Dopers and other fellow Americans in response to the emergency on the Gulf coast, especially New Orleans, have left me befuddled and frustrated.

The responses in this thread have been stimulating. Celestina, you sure know how to dance!

Shodan, and with you also.

[Grrr]

Isn’t there a cultural divide between the races though? (be it however subtle they may be?)

What frustrates me about bridging that gap between the races is that we seem to ignore these differences. For some reason we’re given the animous that if we DO acknoweledge these things; that in itself is being racist.

I think part of the healing involves quit ignoring that Big White elephant over there and understand that we may be different but that doesn’t mean one is any better than the other. It’s like comparing apples to oranges.

In fact I have a crack-pot theory that America is the superpower it is simply because we are such a diversified country. [shrugs]

[celestina]

Why Zoe, thank you, hon. I try.