Racial Consistency

Great Debates
21

December, to illustrate the problem, let’s consider a few hypothetical situations.

  1. Sean Fitzgerald and a few friends start the Shamrock Society, a social club for Irish Americans. Members get together to drink Guinness, eat corned beef, listen to traditional jigs and reels, and watch Gaelic football or curling matches on cable TV.

  2. Tony Romano and his friends start the Sons of Italy, a social organization for Italian Americans. Members get together to dance the tarantella, play boccie ball, eat elaborate Italian meals, and listen to Italian opera.

  3. Stavros Christopholous and his friends start the Olympus Club, where Greek Americans get together to eat souvlaki, do traditional Greek dances, watch videotapes of Greek soccer teams, and teach children about traditional Greek arts and crafts.

  4. Stan Kowalski and his friends start the Polish Power Club for Polish Americans. Members get together for big parties, where everyone dances the polka and eats kielbasa.

Now, all of those groups would be 100% white, pretty much by definition. But would anyone find such groups objectionable? Of course not! It makes perfect sense that people of the same ethnic background would get together to share and enjoy common interests.

BUT… if Fitzgerald, Romano, Christopholous and Kowalski got together and started the White Guys’ Club, yes, I’d have a BIG problem with that! Because there’s NO SUCH THING as “white” culture or “white” heritage! There’d be no common, positive basis for association. I KNOW what Irish, Italian, Greek and Polish music are- you wanna tell me what “white” music is? I KNOW what Irish, Italian, Greek and Polish cuisine are- anyone wanna explain what “white” food is? There’s no such thing as “white” literature, “white” art, or “white” anything else. To claim there is strikes me as either dumb or dishonest.

Is it possible that, if those four guys got together, they might like each other, and might FIND some common interests? Sure. And if they wanted to start a social club of some kind, based around those common interests, that’d be fine. But what kind of interests could they possibly share that, say, a black man mightn’t ALSO share?

If those four guys wanted to start a Stamp Collecting Club, a Gardening club, a Beer Drinking Club, a Poker Club, a Ballet Club, a Hulk Hogan Fan Club… that wouldn’t bother me in the least. But if a black man came along who like stamp collecting/gardening/Hulk Hogan/whatever and wanted to join the club, I can’t think of ANY reason that would justify keeping him out.

22

Egg salad is definitely white people’s food.

23

Anything involving Jell-O or miniature marshmallows.

Sua

24

Kraft Singles[sup]TM[/sup] andOscar Mayer Bologna[sup]TM[/sup] with Miracle Whip[sup]TM[/sup] on Wonder Bread[sup]TM[/sup].

:smiley:

25

That’s pretty inflammatory. It’s very possible for someone to be reasonable and think those things should be let go. Nobody’s claiming the country is racially perfect, but is deeply entrenching what differences and seperation already exist really a good thing? Any you start celebrating the pride of ‘us’ you are by extension pointing out the difference from ‘them’. And the whole process of ‘us and theming’ is counter to the process of unifying which is what I think should be the goal. Notice I said unifying not homogenizing.

26

Are you telling me that I may no longer celebrate my Irish heritage at the Irish Cultural Festival? That’s a shame, since it is usually the only time I can find good harp music or step dancing to show my kids.

(Regarding the beauty contests: you should realize that the issue is money, not separatism, these days. Most beauty contests are sponsored with the goal of providing college scholarships. Once the pageants are set up, the sponsors get to advertise, the contestants get a chance to defray college expenses, and the organizers get income with which to pay taxes. Everyone wins. There is nothing in the pageants that requires anyone to denigrate anyone else–just an opportunity to show off some bodies and keep the economy going.)

27

wolfman

  1. What, precisely, was inflammatory about pldennison’s statement? His assertion that the Miss America pagent, for the overwhelming majority of its history, excluded blacks? Well, it’s accurate. That a lot of people feel historical/financial/etc. ties to the Miss Black America pageant? Again, accurate.

  2. How the hell is the Miss Black America concert “deeply entrenching” differences between the races? It’s certainly not causing me to look upon my black friends with suspicion.

Sua

28

I am a member of the Association of Foreign Wives of Japanese (AFWJ). This is a group which has been around for almost 35 years. To be a member you must be a non-Japanese woman who is, was, or will be married to a Japanese man.

Yes, its exclusionary. Why? Because as a foreign woman in a marriage to a Japanese man, and living in Japan, and raising bi-racial children in Japan, there are many problems I come across in daily life which only people in the same situation can relate to, and can help me deal with.

Why is there no “Association of Japanese Wives of Japanese”? Because they are a part of the dominant culture. Because daily life for them does not present problems based on the fact that they are Japanese. Because problems in their marriages will not be based on cultural differences, but personality quirks. Because their children will not have problems in the education system simply based on their skin tone.

I would be so happy if there was no need for AFWJ. It would save me almost $100 per year. But in order for that to happen I would have to have the same rights and be seen as the equal of a Japanese woman. And I don’t. And I won’t for some time to come. But if you ask any Japanese person on the street if I am as good as a Japanese housewife, I bet they will say yes.

Racism never looks too bad when you are a part of the dominant culture. Sexism never looks bad when your are a member of the so-called dominant sex. Age-ism never seems bad when you are 25.

If a black person comes in here and says “I think the time has come for the Black Miss America pageant to be swept under the carpet” then I will sit up and take notice.

Any takers?

29

How is the Essence Awards “deeply entrenching” anything? How would getting rid of the Essence Awards (or anything other so-called “exclusive” thing) impact society positively?

Are white people and black people the same? No. They tend to have different styles of communication, senses of humor, tastes in music and visual arts, and cultural property. (Yes, this is a generalization, but it’s not a wrong one). Should we pretend these differences don’t exist all in the sake of “unification”? No and to do so is not fair.

30

I’m not making any assumptions. And as for discrimination being different when it’s done by people who are “oppressed”, does that mean then in cities where whites are the minority then it’s ok for them to discriminate ? Or, if your answer is, even though they’re the minority in those cities, but over all in America they’re the majority, so it wouldn’t be OK for them, then, if and when whites become the minority in America as a whole, then would it be OK for them to discriminate ?

31

Monstro, about when you said:
quote:

All I can say is, on the one hand, while I completely understand starting a minority group, because of exclusion from a white group, on the other hand, doesn’t belonging to an all minority group, while blasting all white groups, sound a little hypocritical ?

Who’s blasting “all white groups”?

How is the Essence Awards blasting anyone? When you have a family reunion, are you blasting other families? When you go to a St. Patrick’s Day Parade, are you blasting other ethnic groups? When you to a GBLT event, are you blasting heterosexuals?

In the case of blacks, I’m not talking about the Essence Awards blasting anybody, I’m talking about individual blacks who do things like blast the Emmys for not recoginzing enough black people, and then turn around and go to an all black awards show, which, by its very nature doesn’t recognize any white people, except for maybe a token white guy every now and then.

32

Uhm, I have no objection to ethnic and religious groups having their own celebrations and awards. For example, I’m Catholic, and in my church, anybody can attend services, but only Catholics can receive communion. I’m ok with that. And if I ever attended a service of another religion, I would be ok with any restriction(s) that they would impose on me. Again, the whole point of my post is consistency.
And as for “white guys”, would you prefer the term Northern European Americans ? Or, Caucasian Northern European Americans ?

33

**Wow, this is a provocative statement. It merits more thought and analysis. I accept monstro’s statement that white people and black people tend to be different. Here are some questions:[ol][]Are they more different than other possible dichotomies? E.g., Men and women. Tournament bridge players and everyone else. (I may have more in common with Black bridge expert Amalya Kearse than Monstro does.) Mathematicians and non-mathematicians. (Same comment re. David Blackwell.) Conservates and liberals (ditto re Thomas Sowell.)[]Is the difference shrinking? (Definitely yes, for middle class and upper class Blacks.)[]Should society work to make the difference shrink. I.e., the “melting pot.” (I’d say yes. Some would say no.)[]Just what does it mean to “acknowledge the difference”? This concept could be used to justify a broad range of policy choices, one of which could even be segregation.[/ol]

34

Even though there are still pockets of heavy racism in America, over all, race relations have come a long, long way. Are we where we should be? Of course not. But I guess you and Chula are saying that fire should be fought with fire. Fight racism with racism. Two wrongs make a right ?

35

Why do you think that anyone is “fighting fire with fire”? Do you think that an award presented by an Italian-American group to an American of Italian heritage is racist?

Are you suggesting that the ethnic awards to which I previously linked (and the dozens or hundreds of similar ones) are somehow “fighting fire” or “promoting disunity”? How?

You have made a number of broad claims (or vague statements with broad implications) without ever explaining how they are actually real.

First off, criticism of the Emmys for lacking recognition of black or other non-white actors is really a separate issue. The Emmys are purported to represent the recognition of quality acting and production throughout the television industry. Since it is clear that we do have more black participation–much of it excellent–than ever before, it is legitimate to raise the question as to why such groups are not more frequently represented in the awards. Is is simple statisitcs? Or is there something more sinister going on?

Obviously, some people who raise some objections are blowing smoke. The NAACP’s big hooraw a couple of seasons back, claiming that the networks were reducing black presence was, in fact, silly. They picked a season in which a couple of black-led shows had been cancelled at the end of their life cycle and ignored the fact that in the preceding season more black-led shows had been introduced than in the history of TV. That complaint, however, was launched by one group within one organization. In order for your complaint to be valid, you need to demonstrate that the organizers of the Essence awards had shown support for the complaint of the NAACP. If the two groups are actually separate people, sharing only skin color, then it is you who have created the problem in your own mind by assuming (as so many of december’s threads seem to) that black people think and act in some sort of lock step.

On the other hand, the existence of the Essence awards is no more divisive than that of any other group–Italian, Irish, Polish, Korean, or Klingon–celebrating their triumphs.

The culture of the “white guys” is the overall culture of the whole country. It has borrowed from all the different groups, but there is no trait, characteristic, or behavior that can be seen as “white” that is different from “American.” (Eating white Wonder Bread™? Heck, I don’t do that.) There is no “white guys” aspect of the culture that can be identified as uniqure to “white guys” and distinct from other groups. Among the “white guys” you can find Irish or Scots with family traditions of Celtic music; Poles with family traditions of the morning-after wedding breakfast (that lasts three days); Greeks with all-male and all-female dances; or any number of individual ethnic cultural manifestations. There are no such manifestations for “white guys.” “White guys” is the umbrella term for everyone who is not discriminated against on the basis of appearance. It is a loose collection of a lot of people with nothing in common but a general freedom from discrimination. That is why the idea of a separate “white guy” group is repulsive–its only characteristic is that it already includes everyone who can avoid discrimination by simply walking down the street.

36

Well, this thread has pretty much worn out for me. I’ve heard a lot of points of view and made a lot myself, and from here on out any more posts by me or anybody else will probably just be repetes of what we already said.
Anyway, thanks for all your input. This issue is can be really tricky and complicated at times, but you’ve really made me think. Thanks, goodbye.

37

Excuse me. I never said such a thing. I don’t believe such a thing.

Furthermore, in this very threads monstro wrote

monstro’s statement seems to imply that Black people tend to be similar. I disagreed with her, and named some African Americans who might have more in common with me than with monstro..

38

december, I have no idea what you, personally believe. However, a number of threads that you have initiated have opened with statements resembling “Should some-group-or-another do this?” My comparison noted that tendency. (Note the phrase “so many. . . threads seem to.”)

monstro, in this thread, noted tendencies of behavior and did not claim any all-encompassing lock step. You have never claimed a lockstep attitude, you merely ask your leading questions in a manner that suggests it.

39

The question you should ask yourself is why black people feel it necessary to honor their own. Is it just to be divisive and stick their tongues out to the masses? Or is it to say to black people (and whoever else is watching), “Hey, these are really great artists/entertainers/actors/etc. within OUR community. Let’s give them the love and praise we think they deserve.”

Is there a “white” community that’s separate from mainstream America? Understanding why the answer is “no” will help you understand why the Essence Awards is not racist.

Possibly yes, december. Just think about it for a second. Are tournament bridge players and “everyone else” raised in different cultures from birth? Do their parents speak to them differently? Do they identify with the same special foods and types of music because these items are associated with cultural traditions and customs? Can you look at a tournament bridge player and tell that that’s what he is? Most importantly, have tournament bridge players been historically isolated from “everyone else” such they would develop their own subculture? It’s really not too hard to figure this thing out. I hate it when you act obtuse on purpose.

(BTW, there is no white-black dichotomy. White people are not the opposite of black people, or vice versa.)

Why are you asking if you think your answer is so “definite”?

I would argue that while the cultural differences between whites and blacks are shrinking, they definitely still exist. And this may surprise you, but having a few extra bucks in your pocket doesn’t mean you eschew all of the traditions and tastes of your background. You can go to the ritziest of black-owned homes and tell that black people live there, based on the art on the walls, the music that’s playing in the background, the food smells coming from the kitchen, and the timbre and speech patterns of the people you meet. Cultural property such as these last regardless of money and social status. Black people have never been and never will be white people with brown skin.

Why, december? What’s wrong with me being different from you? Why must we all melt together in other to tolerate and appreciate each other?

You say you want to get rid of the differences, but do you know what this means? It means you’ll have to pick up your Chinese food from McDonalds because all ethnic restaurants would be deemed “divisive”. It means going to street fairs and finding the same rinky-dinky stuff, all of it “diverse” but none of it very authentic or good. It means everyone dressing the same, talking the same, and doing the same thing. It means everyone conforming to what everyone thinks is “normal”. And you know what? We’d still be a hateful, intolerant society because no matter how hard we tried, we’d still all be different.

It means looking at that person over there and that person over there and respecting that they are no better or worse than you just because they are different. It means knowing that it’s alright we’re all different because we can still make things work. No one has to change themselves by acting “white”, acting “straight”, acting “Christian”, or acting “male” just to be accepted. Seems like a fairly simple concept to me.

40

Hahaha! This is funny coming from you, december–the one poster here who LOVES to lump people together. When I come across a thread that reads “Why do Blacks do so-and-so”, I just know it’s a december thread.

Are American-born black people (the ancestors of slaves) share more similarities as a group culturally than they do to white people? Hell yes! In terms of the foods we eat, the music we love, the types of churches we go to, our styles of dress and humor–yes, there is something called * black* culture. Just as there is something called American culture or Mexican culture. Are Americans more similiar to each other than Mexicans, culturally? Yes. Does that mean Americans are homogenous and Borg-like in their behavior? No!