I recently overheard a conversation in a restaurant (a Hooters in Nashville, TN) that intrigued me enough to post here at the SDMB. It went something like this:
Two black guys and one white guy (all were about college-age or just a bit older) were talking about, of all things, fights they had in junior high and high school! One of the black guys was bragging about beating up white guys that had called him the “N” word – according to him, he had done this on several different occasions. At least one such altercation was witnessed by the other black guy at the table, who evidently had known him since childhood. He remarked that the beating was unjustifiable because black guy #1 had been acting like a jerk toward his white victim for a long time, and besides, the white guy was much smaller, and really should not have been beaten so badly. He also implied that his companion had far too much of a temper problem “back in those days”, and was really glad that he had calmed down in the ensuing years. Black guy#1 said that hearing the “N-word” had sent him into such a state that he was really not responsible for his actions. Incredibly, the white guy (who looked like a steroid-enhanced biker stereotype, by the way!) piped up at that point and agreed with the first guy, saying that the “N-word” acts as a trigger which unleashes all this pent-up emotion built up from many previous generations of slavery and discrimination, and that any white person saying it “deserves what’s coming to them!”
So what do you think? Should the utterance of a racial/ethnic slur automatically provoke a physical beating? Should the perpetrator of violence be absolved from blame if his race had been impugned? That attitude seems a bit bizarre to me, but I would like to hear your opinions on the subject
Didn’t they learn anything back in 2nd grade? “Sticks and stones…”
But then again, any white guy who uses that term perjoratively to a black person deserves to get the snot beat out of him, if only for educational purposes.
Slurs are fighting words. If you call somebody by a slur and subsequently get your ass beat down, why would anybody consider the cause or result a bizarre turn of events? In many people’s minds this beating is entirely justified.
“Sticks And Stones May Break My Bones, But Names Will Never Hurt Me” is either wishful childish thinking or a damnable lie adults stupidly tell kids. Words hurt. Sometimes much, much worse than a physical blow to the body.
Whether you’re absolved from blame depends on, basically, how much damage you did to the person saying the slur to you and the mood of the cops who show up or the composition of the jury of your peers, should this go to court. By law, I should probably face some time behind bars for assault but I firmly believe no jury of my peers would convict me if I stomped a guy in the throat for calling me “nigger.”
Don’t let your mouth write a check your ass can’t cash.
**bluetree. ** I’m of the opinion that threatening hateful namecalling is just another form of violence. I’m just retaliating physically to something said verbally. If that makes the other guy then winner, then by all means let me KILL him. Then he’d really have won.
Nobody “wins.” If I call someone the n-word and get my ass kicked, then in all likelihood my negative stereotype will be reinforced by mindless brutishness. Similarly, if someone lets such a filthy epithet slide, the jerk gets off without consequences and may even add “weakness” or “cowardliness” to his/her list of preconceived notions.
I do not mean to imply that restraining oneself from violence some loudmouth ape is cowardliness. But it is certainly seen that way by some people.
“Winning,” to me, implies that someone has changed the mind of some prejudiced knucklehead and enabled them to view their former beliefs with a broader eye. That, however, is rare. All too rare.
Actually, it would have been a purposeful brutishness, i.e., retaliation. Anyway, I doubt the person who beats your ass for saying it would lose any sleep over it.
Which is why its good to stop such dunderheaded notions from forming by administering a soul-cleansing, righteous beating. Even the Bible has cautioned against sparing the rod and spoiling the [del]bigot[/del] child.
That’s certainly a a higher minded form of winning than simply dishing out a legally justified (depending on jurisdiction) ass-kicking. Suppose the person getting the beating gets a nice heart to heart “I-message” conversation at the same time? “When you call me slurs like, it makes me feel like putting my foot so far up your ass I can stomp the Nike Logo on yourt tongue, as I am attempting now.” That should satisfy everybody!
Theoretically yes but in practice I tend to doubt it.
Huh. Until I read the Wikipedia article Askia posted, I had no idea ‘fighting words’ was an actual concept. I had only ever heard it in the context of the phrase “Them’s fightin’ words”.
Physically assaulting someone for calling you a name, IMO, makes you the lesser person. If you can’t let some idiots words roll off your back, so to speak, then you don’t belong in civilized society. But then, neither does the idiot who has to resort to slurs.
I say this as a gay male who has been called more disgusting things than I can count.
Sorry. I don’t buy that. If we all REALLY lived in this mythic “civilized society” of which you speak, you’d be after the hateful verbal instigator of the altercation who assaulted me (presumably unprovoked) rather than coming after me for retaliation. That kind of high-mindedness is certainly something aspire to, but the social niceties of ignoring someone trying to goad you only works, IMO, if by ignoring them you’re demonstrating how irrelevent and dismissable they are. But if you’re genuinely bothered, threatened or angered by their slurs and hate speech, and otherwise have a clean record, ignoring them is probably not good advice. Even non-violent protest is confrontational and belligerent, involving huge numbers of people who defy violent oppression. It’s much harder to pull off when your by your lonesome, so the violent defense is entirely justified.
I’m speaking as a black guy who HAS fought people who called him nigger before.
If the slur is offered in the context of fighting words where you don’t feel safe, where you feel your safety is being threatened, you may well be in your rights to pull out a gun. If the really big guy looks at you funny and growls, “Fucking bitch…” I say pull the gun and prepare to blow his ass away. Not being high-minded enough to avoid violence might make you a lesser person in some people’s eyes, but I ain’t one of them. I do not mind lowering myself to your level if I can climb back up afterwards.
And how well do you think any of this would hold up in court? What are you gonna do, claim self-defense? We’re talking spending all the dough you earn pressing license plates and sewing jeans for the other prisoners going toward paying the trash-talker’s medical bills–assuming he doesn’t kick your ass. I hope you don’t have anything better to do with your life for the next 5-10 years (or 20 to life, depending on which scenario you decide to go with here).
Physical violence in retaliation for verbal abuse is pretty stupid no matter how you look at it. Aren’t we supposed to outgrow that shit by the time we graduate high school? If we don’t want to go to jail over something some shitkicker said, we’d better.
I see you conveniently left out the last part of my comment where I mentioned that the one using the slur didn’t rate being a part of society either.
Being bothered or angered by someones words is not sufficient justification to commit assault and battery. Being threatened by them is, if by threatened you mean they were about to physically assault you.
I have enjoyed your posts in the past and quite often agree with you, but on this I have to strongly disagree.
Maybe you’re given that line over and over in second grade because even at that age, you know better. Words certainly hurt. I agree with Askia on this issue, or at least I agree with his first post.
IMHO, the level of ass beating following a racial slur is directly proportional to the length of time and amount of haterd reinforced be the slur. Calling a white guy the H-word merits a light whomping at best, not been around that long, generally thought of as a retaliation word instead of a direct attack. Calling an hispanic person the B-word will likely get you cut up a bit, that group has dealt with direct hatred for a bit longer. Refering to an asian by the C-word will result in a good amount of physical damage, as well as psycological damage as they lecture you on why you should not say such things. The N-word has been used with such venom and hatred for so long that it has become imprinted in the psyche of many generations, the ass whippin’ that follows is (usually*) warrented. The sole exception of this is, after years and years of association, when the user has fully and without a shadow of a doubt expressed himself and become wholly accepted within a section of society as both an equal and as one who fully accepts others as equals, a white guy can say the n-word exactly once without inciting a reaction of instinctive haterd, twice is pushing it.
(*The other exception should be singing Carlos Mencia’s tribute to Kanye West, rude and crass, racist as all get out, but still makes a good point to deflate an unjustifiably inflated ego)
There is definitely a macho complex among certain minorities that you need to physically destroy anyone who makes fun of your race.
I don’t think there’s much of a public perception that calling a Jew “kike” is going to get your ass kicked. Jews are not thought of as being tough. The Jew might sue you, or get you fired, but nobody assumes that he’s going to lay a beating on you. Same goes for Asians - despite the ridiculous Kung Fu stereotypes, Asians are not thought of as physically tough the same way blacks are.
Our culture has a heavily ingrained idea of a black male as a powerful machine. Ever since the days of slavery, when the black was valued for his strength and physical prowess. I read a very interesting article on this called “The White Man’s Muscles” in a sociological class on superhero mythology. The black male has always been viewed as too animalistic, too strong, and needing to be somehow emasculated and weakened by the prevailing white authority. The idea of a black man beating or killing a white person for using the word “nigger” is part of this American mythology - the idea is that the black is an uncontrollable beast who flies into a violent rage at the utterance of a word. This public perception that we have of saying “nigger” around a black person equalling a death sentence, this is tacit racism in itself.
Linty Fresh. See, I tend to think the instigating verbal abuse is the stupid part of this equation, not my reaction to it: it’s deliberately hurtful sets everything else in motion. It makes sense to ignore it if it genuinely doesn’t bother you, or threaten you, or endanger you. But it’s stupid to ignore a hostile comment, slur or threat with no throught to defend yourself. Hell, I’ll go one further – it’s stupid to ignore hostile non-verbal cues and threatening body language.
So hell, yeah. Self defense.
Antinor01. I didn’t conveniently leave out anything. I agreed with the first part of what you types, that the one instigating all this isn’t acting civilized. I just strongly disagree with the notion that the person who uses physical means to retaliate to verbal abuse or threats isn’t fit for this veneer of civility and politeness we call “society.”
I’ll elaborate. There’s a subset of black culture, connected with the “gangsta” subculture, which values the idea of not taking disrespect. It’s not exclusive to blacks - Frank Sinatra famously punched someone who called him a “wop.” And it’s not racial insult in particular, it’s any kind of insult. Racial ones just carry more weight.
We, as whites, have the expectation that a black person will bury us for using the word “nigger.” Even if there is truth to this, it is a product of our fear of the black gangsta, formerly the black “dope-fiend,” formerly the black escaped slave, and so on.
My opinion? If someone is justified in beating someone up because of one word, they’re justified in doing so because of any word. Want to give the black guy a pass for beating up the racist bigmouth? Fine, but then give me a pass for beating up the guy who calls me ugly. Who’s to say that I’m not just as offended by being called ugly as the black guy is at being called a nigger? Any words can be fighting words if someone’s willing to pick a fight over them.
Yeah, I guess it stupid. Almost as stupid as committing A & B against a guy who didn’t actually touch you. Hey, it’s right up there with putting a bullet through some dude because he called you a name!!
Listen to yourself, for the love of Christ! You’d beat the shit out of a guy who called you a name, unless he’s bigger than you, in which case you’d pull a gun. A gun!! Prisons all over the world are filled with people of all colors who have shot other people in a fit of passion over nothing, Askia. Why do you suddenly feel the need to join them because your feelings are hurt?
Don’t get me wrong, Askia. I don’t have a whole lot of sympathy for the instigator here in this particular hypothetical. It’s not like I would be beating my breast in mourning for the stilled heart in his noble breast.
But if I were on that jury, you’d do hard time even if he walks away from whatever you give him. And if you kill him in cold blood, I’d see to it that you get a life sentence.
