Damuri Ajashi, I am unimpressed with your responses to others and will now take your continued lack of response to data and facts in my posts as acquiescence.
My work here is done.
Every other thread may be a *slight *exaggeration, yes. But the principle is sound.
You haven’t disputed any of my actual words about them. Some had more desire to escape Vietnam than others (because some were more persecuted or more in imminent danger than others). Do you dispute this? Some had more ability and means and more favorable circumstances in order to escape than others. Do you dispute this? Which words of mine do you disagree with?
So self-selection might explain the success of this group, but it can’t explain the success of other groups?
This has nothing to do with anything I’ve said.
I object to your continual attacks on an entire culture and community due to a relative few bad elements. Broad brushing like this is always wrong. Especially when directed at a group that already has piles of shit thrown at it every single day.
More straw man bullshit. These are complicated issues that you insist on making childishly simple. It’s childish to simply throw it in the “culture” basket. It’s also far more complicated than just throwing in the “racism” basket and calling it a day (though at least this latter casts aspersions and blame where its deserved – on broader society). There are tons of interlinked phenomena here that are working in ways that can’t be explained in simple terms.
There are multiple black people in my family (immediate and extended). That doesn’t give me any special license to talk about black people, culture, or any topic. But I’m not making assertions here – I’m just criticizing your hateful, ignorant, and childishly simplistic language.
Ahh, now you admit it’s “facile” and deflect. That’s good enough for me. Good on you for recognizing how facile it is, and hopefully you’ll stop doing this. Perhaps there’s a difference in facile language that cast aspersions and blame on the (mostly) blameless and largely disadvantaged, and facile language that casts aspersions and blame on broader society and institutions that deserve a whole lot of blame and criticism.
LOL. This entire exchange has been arguing the point. Sorry if it hurts your feewings.
Too put it in another way, historically speaking, for statistical disparities that have shown negative outcomes for black people, black people were never the problem, and the way black people were treated by society and institutions and government was always the problem (to put it about as simply as I think is possible). And every step of the way there were folks casting blame on black people, and trying to excuse broader society, for these disparities. I see no reason to believe this has somehow, all of a sudden changed, not when there are still so many forms of societal, institutional, and governmental discrimination and oppression still going strong.
More – Ta-Nehisi Coates has talked about the phenomenon in which the skills and behavior necessary to survive in communities that have been brutalized and purposefully plundered for decades (and more) sometimes can backfire when an individual leaves that community. That’s not the fault of “toxic culture” or anything like that. It’s a symptom of how individuals and communities have been treated by society.
If you are talking about blacks, what are you talking about?
Specifically, what is the community, how does the individual leave it, what are the skills and behavior that are necessary to survive in that community, and how does it backfire when they leave?
Are you claiming (or Coates is claiming) that unwed pregnancy, academic under-achievement, and crime, are necessary to survive in some given black community and backfire when they leave?
Regards,
Shodan
I see it as similar to PTSD, in that PTSD is perfectly natural and can actually be a helpful psychological change when there are people that are trying to kill you, and you have to be alert to be able to kill them back, but those changes damage one’s ability to deal with more normal situations.
And dropping out of high school helps that?
Regards,
Shodan
Joining a gang, acting tough and rowdy, being violent, not learning… All of these are things that can help in the ghetto and will definitely hurt you outside. They’re also things that can get you kicked out.
I’m not sure how much of that actually is accurate, I’m really just spitballing.
ROFLMAO.
/wipes tear from eye
Noone cares if you’re impressed. You haven’t earned any credibility here and the way you talk, you never will.
I’m specifically thinking of an anecdote, which so far Google isn’t finding for me. I might not remember it perfectly, but this is what I recall from his wrting: there was a literary event, early in Coates’ writing career, in which a critic of his confronted him and very harshly and vehemently criticized his writing. Coates’ immediate reaction and feeling was that in order to survive he’d have to follow this guy and physically beat him up so that no one would think he would be a good target for such disrespect in the future. One of his colleagues restrained him and explained what a bad idea this was, and Coates started to realize that the skills and inclinations that had been ingrained in him in order to literally survive in the parts of Baltimore in which he grew up were counter-productive to the point of self-destruction in the new world he had grown into. And that it was incredibly hard, personally, to overcome these inclinations and instincts.
Dropping out of high school is a symptom of that. I am starting to see that you have cuase and effect entirely reversed when it comes to social issues.
It’d be like going to the doctor because you have are feeling unwell, and the doctor tells you that you should stop coughing so much.
Another way to try and simplify things, as I understand it:
Black people are human. There are some circumstances in which, on average, a human being is more likely to become violent, resort to criminal enterprise, engage in promiscuous sex, engage in drug abuse, etc., than other circumstances. In general, poor people face these circumstances more frequently than non-poor people. In general, and due to a variety of factors (economic, institutional, societal, etc.) black people face these circumstances more frequently than white people. In general, poor black people face these circumstances more frequently than poor white people. And so on.
So it’s these circumstances that are the cause, in my view and understanding. Humans are just being humans in the circumstances they’re in, broadly and on average. It’s the circumstances that need to be fixed. Society isn’t fair, and in some ways it’s really, really unfair, to the detriment of certain groups especially.
Looking back through history, the groups that were more successful than others in various societies usually blamed the less successful groups for these disparities. But this was always wrong – it was always the circumstances. And it still is.
IMO and understanding.
Its pretty amusing that you make this criticism while unironically using the term “whiteness”. The criticism could not be more hollow.
Yeah, I get it, you don’t understand the way I’m using the term (I haven’t even used it recently that I recall, so I’m not even sure what usage you’re talking about), so this kind of accusation is much easier. If you want to try and understand the term (which describes a specific historical phenomenon of American society and culture, and isn’t broad-brushing in any way, or an attack on any person or group aside from those long-dead whose policies and practices created the pheneomenon) I’m happy to discuss it, though I’ve tried before and I guess it didn’t stick.
You did something weird with how you quoted stuff but I think I see what happened now so here is the response you are bugging me about.
Re Vietnamese:
Sure Vietnamese immigrants struggle, they just don’t whine about it all the time. But they still outperform whites.
Higher incomes, lower unemployment, higher education achievement for native born Vietnamese. I get the feeling you don’t know much about the Vietnamese.
Re: Poverty causes teen pregnancy (absentee fathers, unwed mothers)
I never disputed that the history of slavery and segregation might be the root cause of some of the toxic elements of black culture (iiandyii caveat, this does not mean that I think that every single black person is an unwed teenage mother, absentee father, violent gang member, high school drop out). And of course there is no single black culture that controls the behavior of every single black person in America but to say that there is no common culture there seems weird.
But in what way do poor Asian immigrants have more access to contraception and quality health care?
That’s the crime victimization survey, I’m familiar with it. It measures the incidence of victims, not criminals.
I would bring up arrest rates and incarceration rates but I suspect that would immediately be met with charges that our justice system is racist and that racism accounts for the large differences.
In what way are poor Asian immigrants (frequently living in black neighborhoods) getting more funding than the blacks in those neighborhoods?
Fighting for more money is not the same as having a culture that values education. Everybody SAYS they value education but they don’t. Not at the same levels.
Like I said, go to a library in an asian ghetto one evening and then go to a library in a black ghetto. Tell me if you see a difference.
Go to a poor high school and look at the graduation and truancy rates for the Asian kids attending that school and the graduation and truancy rates for the black kids.
Blacks as a whole place less value on education than Asians as a whole. Its not even close. Sure there are some black families that place a lot of value on education but they are eclipsed by the percentage of asian families that do so.
Blacks are not more violent due to a lack of initiative. They are more violent because violence has taken hold in their communities as a way to resolve conflicts (some people say this is a result of the absence of fathers in the community). That plus the effects of gang violence.
In NYC, the rate of poverty is higher among Asians than any other racial group. Why don’t NYC Asians have these problems?
How does racism make a teenager pregnant or make a father abandon his responsibility. As I said, it might contribute to the violence and might create hostility towards education but even there, it seems like you are saying that we cannot place any burden on blacks to try and overcome these historical artifacts.
In the end, if you want to wait for the end of racism before you impose any burden for self determination on lacks then you are going to wait a loooooong time.
What opportunities were my parents given that others were not?
I agree with this but it is irrelevant unless you think that the persecution focused on those with means, ability and drive.
Cite for this.
Favorable circumstance is new I think. I can agree that the ones that got out were luckier than the ones that didn’t but I haven’t seen any evidence that they were wealthier, more educated or had any of the sort of advantages that you seem to think accounts for their success.
No, in fact I’m pretty sure that the reason we are talking about the Vietnamese is because I didn’t want to get into the self selection arguments over east Asian immigration.
Well, do you think that the black community has any obligation to try and fix their shit even though racism exists in the world?
“Broad brushing like this is always wrong.” And broad brush statements like that are wrong too.
The majority of black babies born in America are born out of wedlock (about 2/3rds). Single parenthood is one of the most common avenues for downward social mobility in this country. So, perhaps all that poverty isn’t entirely the result of racism and some of it is the result of 2/3rds of black babies being born to single moms. Just fixing that could relieve much of the poverty gap between whites and blacks. This is not the result of bad elements.
That’s not just 2/3rds of mothers having babies out o0f wedlock. That 2/3rds of fathers not stepping up.
I get the feeling you define black culture as “only the good stuff that black people do” and everything bad is "complicated. So explain to me how racism (or society) is getting the unwed black women pregnant. Or is it simply too complicated to explain so I will just have to take your word for it that nothing having to do with black culture as it exists today bears and responsibility for the epidemic levels of single motherhood? Are condoms harder to get in black neighborhoods?
And you do so without making any actual arguments. All you are doing is saying “you are racist for criticizing black culture and placing any of the responsibility for the problems in the black community on the black community itself, oh and your use of the word toxic hurts my feelings”
I’m just admitting the possibility that it is a simplistic explanation because you keep insisting there are more complicated explanations. Sure, everything can be made more complicated and nuanced but those nuances are frequently irrelevant to the conclusions. Once you present those more complicated explanations that rule out culture as a cause, I will admit it was simplistic.
I think racism accounts for a lot of things, I also think that there are plenty of things that are within the power of black communities to change about themselves. I don’t think we can wait for racism to disappear, our great grandchildren will probably not see that day.
Your entire argument has been “I am indignant at how you say there is anything wrong with black culture” “you are a racist for thinking there is anything wrong about black culture” “You are a racist for pointing out that there is anything wrong with black culture” These are not arguments these are just screaming “racist” at anyone you disagree with. It might work a little bit on this site but its been so overused that people just gloss over it now.
So the black community and culture bear no responsibility for the problems within the black community and culture? :dubious:
Every time you post this(or a variation of this) in response to a post, I read through the post you are responding to…and I can never seem to find anything close to what you claim was said.
Why is that?
I grew up in these neighborhoods and for years I told myself that I developed some useful skills and toughness from growing up in a rough neighborhood. Then I had a son and I realized that there were literally ZERO transferable social skills that I developed in childhood by virtue of growing up in a tough neighborhood and learned quite a few habits that were counterproductive. But for the most part those counterproductive skills were result of behavior of people within the community not imposed on it by racists.
Exposure to physical violence also makes you less risk averse and that can hurt you professionally. You learn that getting punched is much less painful than the results of avoiding situations where you can get punched.
Growing up in poverty makes you seem paranoid to people who grew up in the suburbs with their toys strewn all over the front lawn, car doors unlocked, garage door open, garden tools lying out, etc. Acting like your boss like he might steal your iphone is not good for you in the outside world.
Bunch of other things.
Are you serious? You don’t see how people are arguing that the black community isn’t responsible for the woes of the black community and therefore should not bear the burden of fixing that shit?