Sure, I Can agree that some of the toxic elements of black culture are the results of racism. So does that mean we don’t criticize those toxic elements?
I don’t know how it is everywhere in the country but many of the immigrants that are on the other side of that 2 standard deviation gap grow up in these same communities. What you seem to be doing is making a socioeconomic argument, rather than a racist one. Sure its harder for poor people. But after correcting for socioeconomic status, there is still a huge gap.
Once again, these differences persist after correcting for socioeconomic differences.
Of course they don’t but are you denying that there is a cohesive black culture?
I don’t recall calling liberals racist. I think that there are liberals who are racist but I don’t think racism is a necessary part of liberalism. I think that there are racist elements of AA but we accept this racism because of the stuff it is supposed to help reverse. I think its unjustifiable to exercise something as extreme and racist as AA to achieve “diversity” Using AA to help the children of middle class nigerian immigrants over poor asian immigrants seems unnecessarily racist to me.
Sure, there are individuals out there doing what you say and I applaud them. And hopefully they will succeed in changing the culture some day but right now, there are still toxic elements of black culture that a lot of people are spending a lot of effort ignoring because they think its racist to say that the black community might be in a position to help themselves in some way.
There’s not enough.
I don’t know where you get the idea that I believe the myth of the model minority. I think there are definitely aspects of confucian culture (e.g. Japan, China, Korea, Vietnam) that promotes a focus on education and this is helpful in people from these cultures achieving success.
Of course there was some element of self selection. Some (most Vietnamese people, in fact, quite obviously) chose not to, or were unable, to leave Vietnam. Those that did leave both chose to leave, and had the means/circumstances in which it was possible for them to leave. There could be a million combinations of circumstances to account for these logical assertions, and many wouldn’t necessarily require wealth, but they’re pretty much completely tautological assertions.
Most African Americans’ ancestors had no choice in the matter (aside from, perhaps, the “choice” to jump from slave ships or otherwise kill themselves), and all of them had no wealth to bring; the same is true for Native Americans. Further, Vietnamese culture remained in tact for the journey. It was not obliterated by force by slavers or missionaries/colonizers/imperialists, like the cultures of slaves and native Americans. That’s another massive difference in those circumstances.
These are uncomparable, and always will be. For how long will facts and history be relevant? Forever. Or at least for many more generations, I’d expect. They’re certainly relevant now.
I’ve brought up the example of Nigerian Americans before, which IIRC you ignored. Nigerian immigrants to America generally score higher on tests, and have higher wealth and education outcomes, then even Chinese and Japanese Americans (who are the highest-scoring Asian American demographics). Is that because of some superiority in Nigerian culture? Nigerian genetics? Or are the circumstances of Nigerian immigrants involved – some combination of wealth, education, and motivation/drive of those individual Nigerians who make the journey?
Now this last sentence is totally different than saying that the entire black community/culture is toxic. There are toxic elements? Okay, there are toxic elements in every culture and community. I have no problem with such a mundane statement. I have no problem with citing statistics and positing that some of them might be related to culture in some way.
I have a problem with your blanket insults you’re lobbing at the entirety of an incredibly resilient and massively historically brutalized culture and community.
These are extremely complicated interactions that are potentially affected by hundreds of different economic, societal, cultural, psychological, and many more factors.
Simply saying “toxic culture!” tells us absolutely nothing. It gives us no way forward. It provides no information, and helps no one.
If you believe there are toxic elements within various cultures, then be specific. Which cultures (what is “black culture” if that’s what you want to talk about? There are dozens or hundreds or thousands of sub-cultures within the larger heading of “black culture”… it’s ridiculous to talk about such complex things in such simplistic terms)? Which elements?
When you use such blanket terms – wrapping up all of black culture, the entire black community, in America – then you’re saying something about every black American, whether you like it or not.
Maybe you’re just being lazy. If so, stop being lazy and put some effort in. Research the specific cultural elements you believe are toxic, and why they exist, to what extent they exist, in which specific sub-cultures they exist, and how they could be changed. Culture is an extremely fraught topic, and quite reasonably so – if you want to make judgments, then be prepared to be criticized if you make such lazy vast and sweeping negative judgments about a culture that you could never possibly understand as well as members do.
More lazy sweeping silliness. Plenty of Asian people have the bad luck to be born to shitty parents. Plenty of black people are born to great parents. And the reverse as well, obviously.
Just incredibly lazy posting, that just so happens to highlight the superiority of your own culture/community, and the inferiority of another. It provides no other information, no path forward, and no help to anyone struggling. It’s completely useless, unless the goal is to denigrate black people in America.
This is basically saying that black women are earning a larger share of all black earned degrees (so black men aren’t keeping up academically with black women, there is no surprise here).
The third link is just a cite for the statistics in the first link. Its still bad logic.
Black women are doing better than black men and are not doing horribly compared to the general population (still lagging but improving and black women are doing a lot of change black culture positively) but if you are a black man raised in a black community in america, you cannot have missed the difference between how studious black boys were treated compared to studious black girls.
Would you say that the attitude towards studiousness among black boys is helpful?
There is also the close proximity to Hoard University.
You know where you find almost every large black middle class community? Right next to a HBU. The DC area also benefits from a large black military community. It may not be a gateway to wealth but getting into and completing a reasonably useful college degree is a gateway to the middle class.
A community and a county are two entirely different entities. Are you saying that every time you referred to “black communities” you actually meant “majority black counties”?
I think we could argue that there is an chicken-egg relationship with education and prosperity. As families became richer, many more children could pursue intellectual endeavors and it can snowball from there.
Simply planting a university in an area does not necessarily bring prosperity.
You didn’t address this to me, but since I called you out on this in my last post, which I assume you didn’t see, I’ll reiterate: You are wrong. As a group, Vietnamese refugees continue to struggle and do not achieve the success you so blithely ascribe to them as part of the “model minority” argument (which is racist in itself). Refer to the data in my last post.
Easy answer: as long as the racism engendered by slavery, reinforced through segregation, and perpetuated by racism taught to successive generations by parents and others continues. Poverty, not “toxic elements” are the cause of teen pregnancy, for instance.
Though you keep trying to ignore the chain of events that links history to the present day, they’re still there. There are plenty of cultures where slavery, segregation, oppression, and injustices did not lead to the current situation in the US. This is merely proof that history matters, not that there’s something lacking in “Black culture,” which, to reiterate, is not the monolithic entity you keep making it out to be.
Poverty and lack of access to quality health care and contraception. I won’t repeat my entire post, so you’ll need to refer back to it for more info
For the period 2008–12—
Persons in poor households at or below the Federal Poverty Level (FPL) (39.8 per 1,000) had more than double the rate of violent victimization as persons in high-income households (16.9 per 1,000).
Persons in poor households had a higher rate of violence involving a firearm (3.5 per 1,000) compared to persons above the FPL (0.8–2.5 per 1,000).
The overall pattern of poor persons having the highest rates of violent victimization was consistent for both whites and blacks. However, the rate of violent victimization for Hispanics did not vary across poverty levels.
Poor Hispanics (25.3 per 1,000) had lower rates of violence compared to poor whites (46.4 per 1,000) and poor blacks (43.4 per 1,000).
Poor persons living in urban areas (43.9 per 1,000) had violent victimization rates similar to poor persons living in rural areas (38.8 per 1,000).
Poor urban blacks (51.3 per 1,000) had rates of violence similar to poor urban whites (56.4 per 1,000).
You can’t fix it by disregarding the data in favor of your preferred and disingenuous argument that Blacks have not fought consistently for better funding for education. Sure, it’s easier to say, “They [Blacks in Black communities] don’t value education.” It’s also incorrect, ignores the facts, and is racist. Change education funding so it’s not dependent on local property taxes, increase funding for underfunded schools, and we’d take a huge step in alleviating those problems.
Why not use some of that unearned privilege to educate yourself so you stop stereotyping “Black culture” as placing less value on education and tending to be more violent due to some imagined lack of initiative by Blacks and place the blame where it belongs–on poverty, limited opportunities, and yes, continued racism. I realize this would probably be uncomfortable for you, but it would be a good way to honor the sacrifices your parents made and the sacrifices made by parents who were not given the same opportunities yours and mine were.
Still waiting for a cite about the vietnamese refugee wealth, ability and stuff.
I agree that self selection can be a factor. Its why I brought up the vietnamese refugees. So I will just sit here waiting for that cite.
I’ve been talking about toxic “elements” since way the fuck back. Perhaps the red in your eyes has prevented you from seeing it but when you first accused me of calling ALL of black culture toxic I quickly pointed out that I meant that there were toxic elements to black culture that were holding back the black community.
Its a good thing I didn’t do that then isn’t it? But of course some people see racism any time someone says anything critical about black culture.
Sure, I’m not saying they brought it on themselves or wished for it. But its there and its part of their culture.
It gives us information. I don’t know how helpful it is to point to a problem without providing a solution but if you keep ignoring the problem because you think pointing it out is racist then you will almost certainly never find a soluton.
As Shodan suggests, should I talk in terms of blackness the way you do in terms of whiteness?
So which part of black culture are the teen moms part of?
Which part of black culture are the absentee fathers a part of?
I understand that the black violence is largely related to gang activity but that is not an insignificant part of black culture in poor neighborhoods.
I understand that it may be a vestige of the hostility we once had towards educated blacks but there is still a “school is for fools” sentiment in black communities that does not exist as much in others.
No, no I’m not, you’re just hearing it that way.
Are you black? Are you a member of that culture?
At some point when discussing policy, you have to speak in generalities. I might have had shitty parents, but it doesn’t change the fact that I was born into a culture that told my parents to make huge sacrifices for my education. You can still be a shitty parent but your cultures tells you not to be.
Sometimes highlighting the problem is a step forward. You seem to be saying that you can’t point out a problem unless you can point to a solution.
So if you want a solution other than “stop doing that” I suppose we could talk about that if we can get beyond “you’re a racist for pointing out the problem”
I assume you want only *living *white folks, right? That shortens the list considerably but I can name a few. Brother eschereal, Drake, Goku, Mennonites, Quakers (Religious Society of Friends), Joe Biden (2008 - November 17, 2016) Captain Planet, Justin Timberlake (2000-2004; 2006 - 2009; 2012 - 2017), Firefighters (generally), Angela Ziegler, and Robin DiAngelo.
You go on with this straw man bullshit all you want. If you want to highlight a sentence of mine and disagree with it, then feel free. I can’t figure out what I said about those Vietnamese that came to the US that wasn’t tautological. Or are you seriously saying that every single Vietnamese refugee came over with zero wealth? If so, that’s a remarkable assertion, and I’d be happy to find a cite for at least one Vietnamese refugee who came with more than zero wealth.
And not surprised to see you, once again, ignoring the incredible success of Nigerian immigrants. I assume you believe they’re just a naturally superior culture or people, then? Or does a highly successful (more so than Asians, in fact) black immigrant group not compute, in your mind?
More vague, information-free silliness. Pointing to a problem is “the statistics say this, and this is bad” – that’s fine. I agree that higher rates of poverty, criminality, etc., are bad. But saying “toxic culture!” is, at best, a lazy wild guess. You’re making assertions about culture out of the blue, with no information about it (at least none presented). Statistics don’t necessarily tell us anything at all about culture. That so many black Americans were enslaved in the 1800s doesn’t tell us anything about black culture at the time – the “answer” to that problem was that the larger American society enslaved them. Statistics now don’t necessarily tell us about culture – they just tell us about the circumstances of those specific characteristics being evaluated. Maybe culture is involved, or maybe some other factor – economics, institutional discrimination, broader societal discrimination, media depictions, or a million other possibilities.
Do whatever you want. I’ve seen little indication he (or you) has the same understanding of whiteness that I do, so I don’t even know what this would mean.
Why are you asking me? You’re the one making assertions about black culture as a whole. And there are teen moms and absentee fathers in every culture and community, quite obviously.
How do you know these uncited characteristics are cultural? Black slaves spent more time working in the fields than non-slaves. Was working in the fields part of black culture in the 1800s? Or did that behavior have something to do with the circumstances and rules of broader society, and how they were treated by others?
No, and no – I’m pretty sure you knew this already. But by all means ask redundant questions rather than go to some effort and not post lazy, unresearched nonsense attributing something negative to culture just because it’s very complex and there aren’t aways easy answers.
You’re not highlighting a problem – highlighting a problem is “poverty is very high”, or “the crime rate is very high”. You’re doing a half-assed sort of nonsense magic trick – attributing whatever can’t be easily explained (because shit like crime rates and poverty are incredibly complicated, especially when mixed with race and institutional discrimination and things like that) to “toxic culture”. I’ve said before that trying to critique a culture from the outside is a fool’s errand – and it is. But it’s also just so damn lazy. These are complicated issues that deserve more thought than just throwing it in the culture basket. Maybe it’s possible that there is some element of a certain culture (as opposed to economic circumstances, discrimination, broader society, etc.) that leads, say, more young men to choose criminal routes than education and a 9-5 job. But just noting higher crime rates gives us no information about this. Even trying to control for socio-economics doesn’t necessarily tell us anything about this – not when society is so incredibly tilted and so many other factors are involved. It’s the same to me as all those folks carping about black inherent intellectual inferiority, just because test scores are lower and controlling for economics doesn’t explain all of the disparity – there could be a million other factors involved aside from genetics. And there could be a million other factors aside from culture. You’re just guessing. “Toxic culture” – even “specific toxic elements of culture” – is, at best, a hypothesis to explain various statistics disparities, just like “inferior genetics”. And it just so happens to continue the popular meme of black inferiority – whether genetic, cultural, or otherwise. Rather than focusing on a society that has, historically, treated black people (and native Americans) like utter shit for centuries, this meme seeks to shift the focus to the supposed ever-present inferiority of black people.
I’m not going to take part in that, and I’m going to criticize those who choose to do so.
It wasn’t a serious question. What does it matter - in the context of this thread - what specific white folks I like? It’s a ridiculous question that merits a ridiculous response. I like Quakers. I like Amish. I like Mennonites. I like white folks who insist in seeing the humanity in everyone. That’s the kind of white folk I like.
By the way, you have a message board where every other thread you have some topic talking about how blacks are dumb, stupid, less deserving. You have it in this very thread. And you’re shocked that I’m not giving a “serious answer”? Please.
I don’t know how you get to that conclusion from what I wrote. You clearly implied that the vietnamese refugees were a self selected group. It is a fairly extraordinary claim to make about a refugee group. I am asking for a convincing cite to this extraordinary claim. If you can’t then all you have to do is say that you were just talking out of your ass because you cannot (or do not want to be) be swayed by new evidence, logic or facts if the conclusion is inconsistent with your ideology.
I’m pretty sure I addressed Nigerian success and agreed that there was some self selection there just as there is with most economic immigrant groups. I am pretty sure that in a very recent post I pointed out that there are plenty of healthy black cultures around the world, this cultural sickness is not something that is determined by melanin content.
You seem to think that the black community is helpless to improve their own situation. They are not. The origin of the toxic elements of their culture may be beyond their control but the continuance of it is something they might be able to change.
Neither do I but you seem to think using the term whiteness is neutral enough. I’m trying to figure out if you just object to the word toxic or the entire notion that there is anything wrong with the black culture that the black community can and ought to address.
They do not exist elsewhere to the degree it exists in the black community. I don’t know how to resolve it. I know that it is a symptom of something that needs to be fixed.
I am having trouble understanding how racism is impregnating these teenage girls. I am having trouble understanding how it is scaring away the fathers. Are the rules of our broader society encouraging this behaviour? The conservatives seem to think so. They think that a welfare state and encouragement of a victim mentality contributes to this. No doubt they are victims of racism but you don’t need to have a victim mentality, blaming everyone else for everything wrong in your life. Of course they have people that encourage them to think this way.
So I can’t comment on black culture because I’m not black but you can? If you are not a member of that culture, then how do you know I’m wrong? I mean your opinion is just as uninformed as mine.
Have you at least lived part of your life in a poor black community? Gone to school in 90%+ black schools? Or are you a limousine liberal that grew up in the suburbs but reallly reeeeeeeallly understand blacks because you are a liberal?
Sure there could be a million other factors at play here but ultimately the teen pregnancy rate is higher, the unwed motherhood rate is higher, the absentee fatherhood is higher, blacks kill a ton of blacks every year, and they drop out of school at epidemic rates. And while it might be facile to blame it on culture, plenty of people around here seem pretty eager to blame it all on racism. How is that any less lazy? But of course you never take them to task. Because you already know what you believe and you refuse to entertain any ideas that contradict your ideology.
You can’t argue the point so you say you will just keep effectively calling me a racist. That’s just lazy.