Hypothetical, Waste. No university, no matter how conservative would dare pull such a stunt. It only goes one way.
So, MrZ, you’re saying that there are universities that will only give scholarships to those who aren’t white?
Waste
Flick Lives!
avalon:
I’m aware of that scholarship since my daughter in high school was being recruited for it. Since Alabama A&M is a historically black university, they are actively looking to increase the “diversity” of the students. It does work out to be mostly whites for that particular scholarship. Other historically black universities may offer the same type program.
You wrote: “all I need to do now to get that scholarship is go to that one specific university in the hopes I MIGHT get it.” Typically, students apply for admission and financial aid, and see what is offered, before having to attend any university.
No Waste. What I am saying is that Most universities have two kinds of schalarships: those that are open to all races based on merit or need or major (inclusive scholarships) and those for various non-white groups (that exlude whites.)
For example, we had physics, and academic, and accounting scholarshiips, that did not exclude any group. Then we had hispanic and black and native american scholarships that excluded whites.
Inclusive v. exclusive.
I don’t know if Asians can get minority scholarships. Anyone?
[just to make my position clear, I have no problem with private scholarship funds that are exclusive. It is thoise coming from agencies that receive federal or state funds that are problematic}
A remark typical of many made by, e.g., SPOOFE and avalongod:
Read an account of whites-only scholarship programs at two historically-black public universities in Alabama to encourage fuller racial integration there. The courts have so far ruled that these scholarships, like other affirmative action policies, are legitimate as part of attempts to “end segregation and discrimination.”
And when it comes to private institutions, remember, folks, there are whole schools that have required “whites only” specifically! And they are free to maintain that policy unless they want to get federal tax-exempt status. Recall the notorious Bob Jones University, which was whites-only till 1971 and still opposes race-mixing on campus; and here is a quote from a 1983 court decision about a whites-only private school corporation:
I don’t know if Goldsboro Christian Schools is still segregationist or even still extant, but it’s quite clear that at least from 1963 to 1983 it restricted its educational opportunities solely to Caucasians and that the law had no problem with that whatsoever, except it didn’t qualify for federal money. (The OP specifically addressed race rather than sex, but note that plenty of conservative Christian schools and colleges even today hold to what they perceive as Bible-mandated policies of gender hierarchy and rejection of feminism, and nobody shuts them down for it.)
So much for the legal aspect of whites-only educational opportunities. Now, would there be a popular “outcry” if somebody offered a privately-funded scholarship for whites only, outside of a pro-integration program like the one at Alabama State? Well, as has been pointed out, there are plenty of such scholarships that are effectively whites-only because they’re restricted to white ethnic groups like Irish or Italians or Germans, and nobody seems to have a problem with that.
But I agree that a generic “scholarship for whites” might well be widely perceived as somewhat icky. After all, most people fund ethnically-targeted scholarships because they identify with a particular ethnic heritage and want to help out their fellow-whatevers. And the people who view their primary ethnic heritage as simply “white”, that is, who think that the general category of “Caucasian” or “Aryan” or “not dark-skinned” is more significant than the customs and history of any specific cultural tradition(s)…well, such people are often a bit on the unsavory side, aren’t they? Nonetheless, they have a perfect right to hand out their money as they see fit.
Kimstu
I believe most traditionally black colleges have these types of scholarships, Virginia State does. There was a time when I was thinking about attending and availing myself of some of this money since the college is only about 5 minutes away. My BF at the time pooh-poohed the idea stating that a degree from this college would be less desirable than a degree I obtained through some other college. Based on the fact that employers would obviously think that it was easier for me to obtain my degree at a black college where the standards must certainly be lower. I thought this was funny since the guy had gone to Atlantic Christian College somewhere in Carolina. I’d never even heard of the damned school! I was also a little taken aback by this conversation at the time. Up until then I had never even detected a hint of bigotry from this person.
I still don’t understand how anyone can equate setting aside scholarships for minorities with “lowering the bar”. Wouldn’t the best and brightest of these be the ones recieving the benefits. Someone here had suggested that even black achievers would be shut out from some of these grants. And only the less qualified would benefit. I don’t understand how that can be so.
Oh well, I can’t see any point in arguing this anymore. The truth is if someone developed a “white only” scholarship, there is a good chance that someone would call it racist. I know I would. I’d call it that just to piss off the jerks that decided to do something so silly. The idea is simply inflamatory and has no basis. Do you think the KKK has one, or would they just as soon not send any of their kids to college? Afraid they might actually learn something.
Needs2know…why we even bother Gadarene.
I believe most traditionally black colleges have these types of scholarships, Virginia State does. There was a time when I was thinking about attending and availing myself of some of this money since the college is only about 5 minutes away. My BF at the time pooh-poohed the idea stating that a degree from this college would be less desirable than a degree I obtained through some other college. Based on the fact that employers would obviously think that it was easier for me to obtain my degree at a black college where the standards must certainly be lower. I thought this was funny since the guy had gone to Atlantic Christian College somewhere in Carolina. I’d never even heard of the damned school! I was also a little taken aback by this conversation at the time. Up until then I had never even detected a hint of bigotry from this person.
I still don’t understand how anyone can equate setting aside scholarships for minorities with “lowering the bar”. Wouldn’t the best and brightest of these be the ones recieving the benefits. Someone here had suggested that even black achievers would be shut out from some of these grants. And only the less qualified would benefit. I don’t understand how that can be so.
Oh well, I can’t see any point in arguing this anymore. The truth is if someone developed a “white only” scholarship, there is a good chance that someone would call it racist. I know I would. I’d call it that just to piss off the jerks that decided to do something so silly. The idea is simply inflamatory and has no basis. Do you think the KKK has one, or would they just as soon not send any of their kids to college? Afraid they might actually learn something.
Needs2know…why we even bother Gadarene.
What I believe the issue essentially boils down to is a choice between procedural justice and substantive justice.
In other words, do we follow a fair process (all people are treated the same) and hope for a just outcome; or do we seek a just outcome (a society where positions of power and opportunity are possessed by all peoples roughly equally (in proportion to how much of the population a given group represents)).
The problem with procedural justice is it presumes a level playing field, which, I think we can all agree(?) would be an ideal, but it certainly not currently a reality. If we accept this premise (and I would remind those that do not that an uneven playing field was still legally institutionalized as recently as this past half-century, and the existence of more subtile stumbling blocks to equality of opportunity I believe would be naive, at best, to deny), then we must accept that procedural justice will lead with almost deterministic certainty to substantive injustice. Specifically, inequalities of opportunity will continue to self-perpetuate because our playing field is inherently un-equal. (If nothing else, just look at income distribution in 1950, and study access to education as a function of familty income, and then study future income as a function of access to education.)
Admittedly, there may be individual cases where the implimentation of policies to relevel the playing field may be unfair to individuals (such as the financial aid cases sited by Mr.Zambezi), but we do at some point have to decide between unfairness to some individuals, or unfairness on a societal level. Sadly, to deny the choice, I believe, is to skirt the issue.
Are there times when the implimentation is handled poorly, of course; and I think this is most often where well intentioned people of principle most often come to harsh disagreement (aka flame wars). (If a program is intended to redress economic disadvantages and it takes no steps to ensure that the recipients of its benefits are, in fact, in need of economic aid.) I would argue that it is a fault of a given program, not the principle of leveling the playing field in general.
So…getting back to the OP:
Society in general does not feel the sense of moral indignation at scholarships reserved for minorities that it might for scholarships aimed at “whites” because one group has been historically oppressed and disadvantaged, the other has not.
<catchy one-liner deleted for the sake of advancing civil discourse over making clever sound-bytes>
Needs2Know said:
That’s exactly my point! Why would it be “so silly. . .simply inflamatory” and have “no basis”??? Why would that be any more silly or have any less basis than developing a “black only” scholarship???
I can only speak for my College. They had a finite amount of money for scholarships. They alotted a certain percentage for minority scholarships. At the end of two years, they looked at teh minorities with those scholarships and found that tehy were well below the school average in academic performance. Not lowering the bar really, but pretty discriminatory. Mart + white + $0 Below average + black = $80,000.
So you end up with a bunch of sub par students on a full ride, and a bunch of excellent students paying full price. THe only difference between the two being the color of their skin.
Furthermore, in order to meet the “target” for minority enrollment, they had to lower the standard of entrance. So some white kids got bumped by black kids with much lower scores and grades. I know that you are OK with this Needs2know, I am just answering the question you posed.
MrZ:
So, you’re saying that a federally funded institution gave federal scholarships only to hispanic, black and native americans? At the total exclusion of anyone who was white? If so, then I maintain that you are full of crap. I recognize that I don’t know everything about how scholarships are handed out, so if you have some sort of cite that proves me wrong, I will cheerfully apologize. Until then, it looks to me like you are blowing smoke.
Waste
Flick Lives!
I can only speak for my College. They had a finite amount of money for scholarships. They alotted a certain percentage for minority scholarships. At the end of two years, they looked at the minorities with those scholarships and found that tehy were well below the school average in academic performance. Not lowering the bar really, but pretty discriminatory. Mart + white + $0 Below average + black = $80,000.
So you end up with a bunch of sub par students on a full ride, and a bunch of excellent students paying full price. THe only difference between the two being the color of their skin.
Furthermore, in order to meet the “target” for minority enrollment, they had to lower the standard of entrance. So some white kids got bumped by black kids with much lower scores and grades. I know that you are OK with this Needs2know, I am just answering the question you posed.
Oh, heck, Mr. Z., I’ll bet that half the kids at that school were below average.
I guess maybe we should continue to stick the largely nonwhite urban populations with the shittiest schools, then punish them by not allowing them into college because of their poor academic skills, too. That’s a terrific plan.
Question: wouldn’t creating a just outcome necesitate and unjust process?
It seems to me that the just outcome view requires quotas. If blacks aren’t getting enough executive jobs, one would have to forcibly put them there or eliminate executive positions held by whites just to even things out.
Or, to use a different problem, if a disproportionate number of young black men are getting thrown in jail, the way to fix the outcome is to let (guilty) black go free or to find more whites to convict.
A third possibility is to take money from the rich and just give it to the poor. poof, everyone is equal.
In any case, how do you manipulate the outcome without creating unjust procedures?
Excellent post, MetallicAsh! I think you’ve really hit the nail on the head.
Those who cast this solely in terms of “equal treatment” for all individuals can only conclude that affirmative action-type programs are discriminatory and therefore wrong. Period. They are wrong today, and they were wrong 30 years ago because white individuals were discriminated against in order to give preferential treatment to blacks and other minorities. Discimination is discrimination, regardless of when it takes place.
I myself am more of the opinion that our moral responsibility, as a society, to “level the playing field” outweighs the injustices that have supposedly been inflicted on white Americans through our efforts to do so. Yes, race-based scholarships have a negative side to them, as does affirmative action in general. Someday I hope they won’t be necessary or even desired – by minorities, most of all.
But have we reached that point yet? I think not, and I hope that white Americans’ cries of “reverse discrimination” do not become the main criterion for us to make that decision in the future.
MetallicAsh, that post was great. I see you have only five posts to your credit. I am hoping that we will see more, sir.
Yer pal,
Satan
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Waste, it is a private school that to my knowledge receives federal funds. The schalarships were not federal scholarships but rathere were from the schools general fund, as far as I know.
pld, I have an Idea, how about providing better high schools to these urban kids you reference. THat way they can be educated by the time they get to college and wont need handouts or lowered admissions standards.
Of course, you can keep putting these unpepared kids into schools where they are destined to struggle for lack of a basic education…
It just struck me that what my opponents here are saying that discrimination is OK as long as it is for a good and noble end.
There is also the assumption that the problem that urban blacks face is do to a lack of good schools. I do not know if this is true, but I bet it is a lot more complicated than that. Exeter placed in a black neighborhood would probably not solve neighborhood problems.
Garfield reiterated:
Garfield, have you been reading the posts?? Exactly that question is what MetallicAsh and I already substantially dealt with. MetallicAsh said:
And I said (although I accidentally said it in hard-to-read pure bold):
Get it? Wealth and power in this society are still disproportionately possessed by white people (if you don’t believe that, just look at the racial composition of Congress, or the executive board of a Fortune 500 company, or the administration of a highly prestigious university, or a state senate), largely because of the lasting effects of earlier rules that kept out non-whites. As MetallicAsh said, special educational resources for non-whites are therefore usually seen as efforts to “level the playing field,” to make up for that historical disadvantage. And as I said, white people who think that it’s unfair for whites not to get special resources too are usually blindly reacting out of wounded feelings of exclusion (or worse), and paying no attention to historical or economic reality. That’s why so many people would consider it silly, inflammatory, or possibly racist to make the claim “there ought to be more general scholarships exclusively for whites.”
A couple tangential points:
As MetallicAsh pointed out, it can be a principled position to argue for what s/he called “procedural justice,” i.e., maintaining that it’s not right to try to redress the existing disadvantages of non-whites with discriminatory policies: race-blind principles should be applied across the board even though the playing field’s not level yet. If that’s what you’re arguing, fine, and I’m glad to see someone so dedicated to the ideal of a truly egalitarian society! (I trust that your devotion to this ideal makes you ever vigilant against discrimination in any form, e.g., that if your school or company or residential area or electoral process seems to disproportionately favor whites, you immediately and publicly investigate the circumstances to make sure that no racism is involved.) Just don’t kid yourself that the playing field overall really is level right now!
And by the way, I do recognize that you probably don’t feel like a wealthy member of a privileged elite as you sit in your school auditorium worrying about how to pay for college, and it’s true that many individual white people don’t get much share in the advantages that white people as a whole still retain. One of the smartest things rich white people ever did was to persuade non-rich white people that their decrease in economic security over the past few decades was due to unfair gains by non-white people. See, your financial difficulties don’t have anything to do with global fiscal policies or Fed-mandated unemployment levels or expensive sprawl subsidies: the problem is that blacks and Hispanics can get some scholarships that you can’t!! Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain! Well, I suppose this is getting a bit off-topic…
Kimstu
I’ve just spent the past 30 minites in a fruitless attempt to find the case presented in my Trusts class involving this issue. In a nutshell, someone set up a charitable trust to provide scholarships for “christian white males.” Seeing as charitable trusts are overseen usually by state Attorney Generals, for obvious public policy reasons over the years the trust was effectively re-written to remove these criteria for eligiblity.
As MetallicAsh accurately put it, historically disadvantaged groups can have scholarships for them. Being a middle aged white midwestern male, I don’t have a problem with that. “White” means practically nothing, ethnically. The groups that have these scholarships at least have some common background.
While I was looking for the case I was referring to above, I came across a case saying that a trust for the support of homeopathic education was against public policy for health reasons, but that belongs in another thread…