Yeah! That’s what a hitch in the service is for!
Well… it’s a complex and competitive world, and to some extent the ability to “endure unpleasant bullshit” is a necessary life skill for many people.
Yes. Unschooling CAN screw up a kid, but the public school system can also do that too. And I have to say that I think that “normal” homeschooling has a greater risk of screwing up a kid. About 80% of homeschoolers are Christian homeschoolers. These tend (they aren’t always thou) to be the ones where the kids are REALLY sheltered. At least when unschooling is done well, the kids aren’t sheltered.
If, by Christian, you mean conservative evangelicals, it’s not anywhere near that much anymore. More like 50-60% maybe, not more than that I don’t think. There’s a large chunk of middle-road folks, and a good chunk of “religious but not homeschooling for religious reasons,” and so on. There are Jewish, pagan, atheist, Mormon, Muslim, Catholic, and don’t-care homeschoolers–I subscribe to Secular Homeschooling magazine, in fact (and it is excellent). The evangelicals are a lot more consolidated than the fragmented and individual rest of the bunch, though.
I was quite annoyed by this recent article, which may be where you got that number. Can you spot the errors in logic?
So. They take the 83% that want to give their children ‘religious or moral instruction’ and assume that *all *of those people are YECs–not Orthodox or Jews or humanists. That’s ridiculous–while quite a few homeschoolers are evangelical creationists of some sort, it’s nowhere near 83%. Most parents want to give their kids moral instruction as part of parenting.
Then you have a spokesman for the HSLDA claiming that the majority of homeschoolers are evangelicals. Consider the source: HSLDA is an organization that has, for years, had an interest in pushing an image of homeschoolers as a homogeneous voting bloc of evangelicals. They do a lot of political work. Non-evangelical homeschoolers are often quite hostile to HSLDA and feel that they work to make homeschoolers afraid because it’s profitable for them.
I’m sorry, even the most generous estimate cannot get YEC evangelicals to “most” or “80%” of homeschoolers. In the Bible Belt it’s probably that high, and they might get the national average up to 60% (though I doubt it, I think it’s more like half), but homeschooling is getting more mainstream every year and the evangelicals are losing their majority.
I had an interesting experience with school. I spent some years at conventional schools, some at “alternative” schools, and one in a homeschool collective. Then, I was unschooled for all of my high school years. I’ve never felt disadvantaged by it.
I personally don’t think I missed anything by not going to school for those years. I had plenty of social interaction, with people of all ages, which I think was much better for me than the social pressure cooker of high school. When I was old enough to be eligible for it, I took a six-week adult education course that provided me with a high school diploma. I know there were–are–gaps in my knowledge, but I doubt anyone emerges from high school as a fully-rounded person anyway. College was not in the cards for me at the time (though I’m working on a degree now), because I had to support myself, but I know many other homeschooled and unschooled people who went on to college at 18, for what it’s worth.
Can it go wrong? Sure. So can any other method of schooling. John Taylor Gatto and John Holt, for starters, have written pretty convincingly on how conventional schooling can and does.
Well, the methods in the OP sound pretty :dubious::dubious::dubious:, but I honestly don’t think public school is much better.
My sister was on the honor roll her entire life (literally every quarter from elementary school through high school graduation) and I bet you she couldn’t tell you:
-Who won WWII (or even who fought in it)
-More than 5 US presidents
-The parts of a cell
-Any math past arithmetic
-The basic structure of our government
-A very basic summation of the theory of evolution
-The VERY basic geographic or political structure of the world
-Pretty much anything about politics, economics, history, or any branch of science
She has never voted or read a book. She didn’t go to college.
And BELIEVE me, she is nowhere near uncommon in her peer group. She’s not “the dumb one” in any given social situation. And she’ll be fine in life because she’s very pretty and has a good sense of humor.
Meanwhile, my brother and I both got abysmal grades our entire lives, dropped out of high school, and now we both have college degrees with excellent GPAs.
Its been a long time, but there used to be a sheet up at Uncle Hugo’s (the renowned Science Fiction bookstore in Minneapolis) for a fan based homeschool group. And I know a lot of pagans homeschool.
My daughter tells me one of her friends will be homeschooled next year instead of going to public middle school. If the young man isn’t gay as the day is long, my gaydar is way broken. Middle school will be horrible for him (even if he is straight and has merely picked up mannerism from somewhere, it wouldn’t make any difference to middle schoolers), if he were my kid, I’d homeschool him too.
But she also had in her class, briefly, a girl who’d been homeschooled who didn’t last. Her homeschool experience had not prepared her for a disciplined and structured classroom (or being able to do math at a fourth grade level - very well read in her interest areas, but neither mother or daughter had much interest in math, so they didn’t pursue it).
Homeschooling is something that is highly variable. When done well, there is no doubt that it can be a far better choice for an individual child and family than traditional schooling. When done poorly, its irresponsible parenting.
There has been a fair amount of research done into the socialization of homeschooled children; AFAIK all of it has concluded that they are *at least *as socialized as public-schooled children, and sometimes better.
Just a note on religion and home education:
When I homeschooled my daughter the only legal way to do it in our state if the parent didn’t have at least a Bachelors (in anything!) after sixth grade was to claim religious exemption and sign up with a homeschool program. The only one in Memphis at the time was Gateway, an evangelical Christian church based program.
So we would have been included in the numbers of evangelical Christian homeschoolers.
I should say that I have nothing in principle against homeschooling; my mom and I even considered it after I got kicked out of high school in ninth grade. Though even there, with her being a professional teacher, she was worried that she couldn’t give me a good enough education in math and science. Fortunately, I ended up getting accepted to a different (and much better) high school, so we never had to follow up on that.
Nothing new, although the ‘home’ aspect may differ, this has been going on for at least 50 years - see http://www.summerhillschool.co.uk/.
To my mind, there are many pros in terms of encouraging independent learning - in fact one of my criticisms of the UK National Curriculum is exactly that - there’s little sense of individual development patterns, just constant comparison with an age-related peer group. In the outside world, the fact I’m a certain age bears no relation to my standing in my place of work - why shouldn’t that be reflected at school?
Of course, I can see the other side of the coin too, but it depends what ends you’re working towards. If you need a job with a degree, for instance, this approach might hinder you - but you might well be a more pleasant, free and likeable person who forms great and lasting relationships for instance.
I saw this story the other day. First, these folks are self-described “Radical Unschoolers”, in that their approach extends well beyond “schooling/learning” to allowing the kids to make ALL their own choices. In that sense, they are not exactly representative of most Unschoolers, although the basic philosophy is the same. They are at the extreme end of the spectrum.
Secondly, I can speak to this as the parent of an Unschooled son. (You wanna piece of me? Huh? :mad:)
In the interest of fighting ignorance wherever we find it:
He went to 1st grade and we never sent him back. He entered school on the cusp of reading and with an insatible curiosity about the world and those 9 mths. set him back at least a year. He began saying things like “I’m stupid” and “Reading is hard” and “No, I don’t WANT to (do anything which in any way resembles learning)”.
He picked up the idea that “learning” was “work” and “boring” and something you did because you were forced to.
And this was a pretty “progressive” school, an arts magnet within the public system we selected because we hoped it would be more flexible and because several of the friends he’d had in the 5 yrs. he spent at a very progressive Preschool (where I had worked) were going to go there.
I volunteered in the class one day a week (it was a co-op) and was disturbed by what I saw. For one thing, the chunks of time alloted for each activity were so short that we spent the day hopping frantically from one thing to the next. The kids who had no interest in the activity (and for whom this strategy was designed, imo…cater to the lowest common denominator and switch it up before or just after they start acting up) STILL were not interested.
And the kids who WERE never had enough time to really get into their work or finish it. Too bad…nice painting, put it away now and sit in the circle. :smack:
It wore ME out, and I had 15 yrs. experience working with classes of 3 year olds! :eek: No wonder he came home every day exhausted, frustrated and not wanting to go back. 
One day, I was in charge of the class for an hour or so and it was going great…everyone was busy doing their own thing (some kids reading, some doing art, some building things, some using the math materials or playing educational games) and another parent volunteer came in and YELLED, “IT IS TOO LOUD IN HERE!”
Everyone, including me, just gaped at her. WTF? The only “noise” was a low-grade buzz of happy, constructive activity. I had a pretty decent idea of the difference between that and “too loud”. :rolleyes:
But she proceded to make everyone clean up everything and sit quietly to WAIT for the next structured activity. (and of course, the “problem” kids immediately began acting up while the “good” kids sat there bored for 10 minutes)
Anyway, that sort of shit. Convinced me that this was NOT the sort of “education” I wanted for my son.
So we brought him home. We tried “homeschooling” (doing school at home) for a while, but it usually ended up with both of us in tears/angry so finally I just said, you know what? I’m going to let it go for now…let him decompress and relax and get back to learning the way he always has, without pressure or structure (fully intending to spring the school thing on him later;))
He spent that summer teaching himself to read with The Pokemon Handbook. He spent hours a day poring over it, asking his dad and me only what a word was here and there. (and to read it TO him now and then…groan! But we did:smack:)
No drills, no lesson plans, no mandatory texts. He just learned to read because he was REALLY into Pokemon and wanted to know every word in that damn book AND we soon tired of reading it to him and encouraged him to read it on his own!;))
We went places; the zoo, parks, museums, out walking, play-dates, to our family business to watch or help Dad out, social events with friends or family, just out walking collecting flowers or rocks.
He THRIVED. (and I never got around to re-introducing “school at home”)
Later, I joined an Unschooling group in our area and we got together on a regular basis with other families. We did field trips or just hung out while the kids and parents socialized.
It always struck me as funny and sad when I would read or hear someone say that Unschooled (or even homeschooled) kids were not and needed to be “in the real world”. Um, HELLO! Our kids ARE in the “real world”, every DAY. It is the kids in SCHOOL who are in an artificial environment most of their lives. :rolleyes:
At 13 or so, he decided he wanted to try school. He was going through the typical teen angst of “my life SUCKS…if only THIS were different, it wouldn’t.” OK. Fine. At the time, we lived very near a middle school, so we agreed; we would arrange to enroll him and the only thing we asked was that he give it at LEAST one grading period (6 weeks) before making a final decision.
So I contacted the school (beginning of the school yr) to find out what I needed to enroll him. They were dumbfounded at the idea of a 7th grader with virtually NO school records! :eek: I explained that the law in Texas (where we were at the time) required no set curriculum or testing, only a “curriculum of printed materials covering” several basic areas, either from the library or books in the home, whatever. They were woefully ignorant of the laws and finally suggested I compile a portfolio of his work and come in and meet with a counselor. Fine.
I did, collecting examples of his art, his writing (short stories and poetry he’d undertaken of his own accord), a few sample math sheets I had him complete, and my own contribution of a short essay describing science and otehr projects we’d done recently.
The counselor was a bitch. She was so condescending I almost bit my tongue in half trying not to rise to her bait. (I had promised my son I would do this). She opened the folder, took one look at his HANDWRITING (his penmanship was, like many boys his age, atrocious) closed it, and said, “He’s going to need a LOT of work in English.”
I replied, “He reads and writes at a college level. His penmanship is awful, I agree, but if you’d READ som…” She brushed me off and went on about how much “help” he was going to need in the area of “socialization”. I actually laughed. This was a boy who’d been “socializing” with people of all different ages since toddlerhood, who was always getting amazed comments on how well behaved and articulate he was from adults and who had many friends around his own age. WHATEVER! :rolleyes:
He ended up deciding to leave school in a week. We made him stay 6, per our agreement. He made straight A’s, his teachers loved him, he made friends. But he felt he was in “prison”, found the work dumbed-down and insulting, the “socialization” immature, bizarre and “pathological” (his word), and resented the way going to school cut into his reading, writing, guitar practice, photography, and other things he valued.
Fast forward to now. He decided to attend High School (we moved to another state and a better area for schools) and he wanted to go, mainly for the “social” aspects (i.e. GIRLS) 
OK.
He will be graduating in a few months. He has been taking AP courses in English, History, and Math every year and passing with flying colors.
He has been the Features, Photo, and/or Opinion Editor of his school paper every year as well.
He has many friends and is very popular (the phone hardly stops ringing!)
His teachers all adore him and are astounded at the comments he makes in class and his work. He’s in Drama, We The People (a debate/American History club), and a band with friends (he plays bass, very well, imo).
He is definitely going to college, already applied to a few he likes, majoring in either English, Journalism, or Linguistics (he can’t decide).
But he may take a year “off” to either do an internship at a local daily paper or be a TA in the AP English Dept. of his school (he’s been offered both).
I don’t worry about him ending up flipping burgers or on the dole, let me put it that way.
Yes, entirely anecdotal, but at least a REAL story from someone who knows something about the subject as opposed to a knee-jerk attack from someone who has no fucking CLUE. :rolleyes:
And BTW, I (I would say “we” but my husband died 2 yrs ago) am anything BUT an “Evangelical/Religious homeschooler”. Those folks have been trying to take over and claim title to the homeschooling community for years and legislate things better left unlegislated.
I mentioned I joined an Unschooling group in my area, but it was actually a bit of a drive, since my immediate area was full of Religious, Right-Winger Homeschoolers, and not only did I not agree with their religion and politics but their educational style did not match ours in ANY way! Very structured and “academic” (except, of course, when it came to teaching actual science:p)
I tried to form a group in my immediate area, but gave it up after the first few meetings…only Right-wing home schoolers, no Unschoolers or even more liberal homescholers. I got really tired of the question, “So, what curriculum do YOU use?” and the blank stares when I replied that “we make our own.”
The group I joined had a very diverse membership, including several who were religious and/or right-wing in politics, but we shared the same basic philosophy re’ learning/education and we got on very well! 
P.S. anyone with a real interest in learning more on this subject should read John Taylor Gatto. His opus, “The Underground History of American Education” is available on-line for free aa are shorter essays like “The 6 lesson Schoolteacher.” Also Holt, who was an earlier advocate. Both former teachers, oddly enough (NOT!)
Up through about age 12, I was a Montessori student, which is about as close as you can get to unschooling in a recognized educational setting. We had some generalized lessons and goals, but a lot of what we did was self-starting. I thrived, as did many others, but some kids were just lost.
Good story, InterestedObserver. I’ve toyed around with the idea of only sending my kid to school every other year or so until high school, but he’s only 13 months so I have awhile to think about it :p. One thing, though: how do you work when your kid isn’t in school, or did one of you always stay home with him? Daniel Quinn has an interesting theory that public school is basically designed to keep child labor out of the workforce. Not in the conspiracy sense that it was intentionally created that way, but it sort of just evolved that way.
I agree, that’s some pretty compelling arguments for this method. I did very well in standard public schools (“with structure,” ugh), as I’m sure a lot of people here did. But in the 12 years I spent there, I spent more than enough time being bored, unchallenged, being ordered to do things in a specific lowest-common-denominator way for no particular reason, and so on. If I compare the good, bad, and mediocre teachers, I don’t think the percentages look very good. I did figure out how to deal with boredom but much of that time was not well spent. I’m surprised anybody would look at it that way.
I was bored out of my skull during much of my public education. Senior year, they finally decided to set up accelerated classes. About 12 years too late–I’d developed some pretty lazy study habits by then. But I survived.
However, my mother was a widow with 3 kids. We got some government money, but she really had to have a full time job. “Unschooling” seems like a nice pastime for educated ladies who can afford to stay out of the work force.
I think this aspect of homeschooling/unschooling might be something that confounds the research regarding the effectiveness of these approaches. I’m not saying that the approaches aren’t helpful for some students, but if you have the ability to have one parent home pretty much all the time to guide the student-run learning process, I would think that one variable makes a huge difference in student involvement in the educational process regardless of method.
It wouldn’t have been practical for my family either, I’m sure.
You’d be surprised how little homeschooling/unschooling families will live on in order to live the lifestyle they choose. Some parents will work at home or even trade shifts in order to pull it off, but a lot of them just live on very little. There are single-parent families that homeschool, though I don’t quite know how they pull it off.
One friend of mine is a homeschooler in Las Vegas. Her husband is a real estate agent, so you can imagine what their income has been for the past 3 years or so–practically nothing. She has become an expert in gardening (in Las Vegas!) and food storage. They have not received any gov’t or church assistance; instead, she started a website to teach others what she has learned. They are still living on nothing, still homeschooling.
Of course I’ll grant that homeschooling is not for everyone, and it isn’t financially feasible for quite a few. But there are an awful lot of homeschoolers living on less than you would expect, because they figure it’s worth it. I saw some figures a while back–people with quite high incomes mostly don’t homeschool, they seem to spring for private school instead. Homeschooling appeals more to middle and lower-income people. It gets rarer for people in poverty, of course, but like I said–you’d be surprised.
I guess I should add that we went completely without income for most of last year. It wasn’t very fun, but we still homeschooled. We did sell out to the Man and joined a charter that pays for materials.