"Radical Unschoolers" - Is this irresponsible parenting or simply ahead of the curve?

Great Debates
101

Because school’s not tailored to bright, motivated students who want to explore “a wide array of topics”. Especially public schools.

I was essentially self-educated until college. Mom made me enroll in school every September from kindergarden until 9th grade (when we moved permanently to Mexico and thus passed out of the purview of the Board of Education), and I invariably hated it and demanded to be allowed to drop out, usually within a month. Some of the schools I tried out were private schools aimed at higher-achievers, and some were magnet schools, and I hated them just as much. I always did very well, gradewise, and usually was placed in advanced English/Math classes, but it was all just too boring, repetitive and over-structured, and took up too much time that could be spent on reading or hobbies.

I learned to read late; I refused to learn the alphabet or any of that, and Mom eventually gave up on the theory that I’d learn when I was ready; when I was almost nine I got interested in books and taught myself to read. Mom bought me lots of books, and I read what interested me (science, math, trashy fiction). She tried to get me to read stuff I didn’t like (history, literature), but that never worked; I’d just complain until she gave up.

I had a tough time getting into college (excellent SATs, no references) and had to spend a year at a junior college, but I transferred to MIT, did graduate studies at Harvard, and am now a scientist with a PhD. College was fun. Everything before that was unnecessary.

102

I just saw a picture on my friend’s FB page. Her oldest boy is 10. His school desk is a tree house! He has a walkie talkie to ask questions! His desk is a freaking tree house 15 feet up in a giant tree!! That’s like the coolest thing ever!

Presumably he works in the house on rainy days.

I want a tree house desk.

103

Re’ the “how do you afford it” question and the “seems like something only the idle rich can do” argument, the short answer is that we COULDN’T “afford” it.

We sacrificed a LOT in the way of earnings and material things to be able to do what we thought was best for our son. We lived on one income at times, or on one from employment and one from self-employment from home. Or half of a “decent” income for both of us working 70 hrs a week at our own business and never knowing for sure what we’d have from month to month.

Until the last few years, the last time we had cable was 1985. We didn’t eat out much. I shopped thrift stores a lot. (still do, ftm, even when I can afford retail) New socks and/or underwear was a big deal. :smiley:

I ran my own home-based business for a while (A state registered Preschool…I hold a degree in Child Development). I also did a paper route for a few years to bring in enough to allow me to stay home while my husband worked.

I mean, some people sacrifice to pay for private school…WELL, some sacrifice to “pay for”/afford NO SCHOOL. We did it when the kids were born…me staying home to be with them and breastfeed for the first 18 mths-2 yrs or so. We worked it out.

We/I have NEVER been “rich” or even “middle class”. “Working class” to “Poor”…mainly because we both chose to do what we loved (me, Preschool Teacher, he, Silkscreen Printer/Artist) as opposed to what could have made us more money and put what we thought was best for our kids over material concerns (foolish…maybe…but I have no regrets:D)

I actually think that one of the primary functions of the public school system IS to free up both parents to work AND to train/condition the next generation to do mind-numbing jobs and be easliy manipulated citizens (sit and WAIT…studies have shown that a majority of the time spent in school is spent WAITING) follow orders from authority figures, do meaningless tasks for an external reward (grades/pay), and put aside any ambitions of anything more.
Again, read John Taylor Gatto.

In fact, I will quote from his essay, The Six Lesson Schoolteacher (available on-line in its entirety. I highly recommend reading his comments on each for a full understanding):

http://www.cantrip.org/gatto.html?seenIEPage=1

"The Six-Lesson Schoolteacher

by John Taylor Gatto, New York State Teacher of the Year, 1991

The first lesson I teach is: “Stay in the class where you belong”…

The second lesson I teach kids is to turn on and off like a light switch. …

The third lesson I teach you is to surrender your will to a predestined chain of command. Rights may be granted or withheld, by authority, without appeal. …

The fourth lesson I teach is that only I determine what curriculum you will study. (Rather, I enforce decisions transmitted by the people who pay me). …

In lesson five I teach that your self-respect should depend on an observer’s measure of your worth. …

In lesson six I teach children that they are being watched. I keep each student under constant surveillance and so do my colleagues. …

Look again at the six lessons of school. This is training for permanent underclasses, people who are to be deprived forever of finding the center of their own special genius. "

104

Just want to share this link of “Unschooling”/education related quotes.

Some very good ones to ponder (mostly from “losers” who were “handicapped for life” by not getting a “decent education”.:p)

105

If

Well that’s good then! And yes, I got that stat from HSLDA. Thanks for correcting that.
I still think that many conservative evangelical homeschoolers may not be exactly on par with their social abilties. I do think that many “just homeschoolers” as well as some conservative evalingcals are OK socially…but I mean there does seem to be a subtype of conservative evalingcals who REALLY ubershelter their kids, and who only allow their kids exposure to CHURCH stuff. (that’s actually mentioned as a sizable population)ike the kids would be OK interacting with church folks, and have a superfical social give and take, but still give off a “sheltered” vibe and not really know how to deal with social life in groups.

106

Yes! Me, I dropped out at 16 (but I REALLY dropped out for all intents and purposes in 7th grade). I spent 2 yrs. Unschooled/just living life and then went in at 18 and got my GED (as I had promised my mother I would). No problem. I remember that the woman who came out to tell me my scores looked at me and said, “You ARE going to college, right?” I said, “Maybe. I don’t know.”

A few years later, I did, and graduated with a 4.0 GPA.

I am currently back in college working on my second degree and have a 3.80 GPA to date (I made a C in French last term and had an insane English Prof. who gave me a C+ which I SHOULD have challenged but it seemed like too much hassle…I could give you her name and you could look her up on ratemyprof.com and you would get an idea, but WHATEVER!:rolleyes: I am done with my English credits and never need see HER again!)

Anyway, YES. School for me then was a total waste of time and BORING and was killing my spirit. I bless my mother every day for allowing me to drop out when she did. (even though I know she had serious reservations and just did it because she, as a single working mother, couldn’t KEEP me in school…I would just arrive then LEAVE at first bell and go home/elsewhere:smack:)

I think if I HAD been forced to finish out those last years, I would have 1. gone completely batshit INSANE and been locked up or 2. burned out on school/education completely and never bothered with college. (or both:D)

I have seen it so many times working with young kids…it is almost always the best and the brightest who cannot conform to the fucked up system and get labeled as “trouble”. They simply revolt against the stupidity of the whole thing and “act out”.

That sounds vain, but it is just my experience…I was simply BORED and INSULTED by Jr. High/High School. Doesn’t take a genius TO be! :wink:

College is a whole different world, though it CAN be just as stupid at times…if you have the self-assurance under your belt that independent thinking brings, it is a HELL of a lot more tolerable than what comes before.

Fact is, it does NOT take 12 YEARS to impart the basics one needs to move on and explore the world independently (basic reading, math, science, writing). Those years are for warehousing and conditioning one to accept a life of boredom and insult quietly. JMHO. :rolleyes:

107

I don’t know how sizeable that population is, actually. I think you’re referring to the patriarchal/quiverfull folks, a subset of fundamentalists who are indeed very extreme and isolationist and who follow the teachings of organizations like No Greater Joy (the Pearls), Above Rubies, and Vision Forum (Doug Phillips). I read the No Longer Quivering website and you may be interested in looking at that. QF does seem to be spreading as a fundamentalist philosophy, but it’s still a small subset of the much larger evangelical/conservative Christian population; I think most people look at and find it far too extreme.

I know a lot of the evangelical homeschoolers around here and most of them are pretty ordinary and friendly. (Even to me, the heretic!) They wear regular clothes, etc. A few of them have a lot of kids, and one or two of those wear skirts/long hair, so they may be doing something like QF, but I wouldn’t know (and I mostly hang out with the hippie unschoolers). I have hopes that the QF philosphy and the Pearls–maybe even VF–will get a lot of exposure and eye-opening from its adherents as the Schatz case plays out–the editor of Secular Homeschooling is writing a long article for a wider audience and I would really like to see a book directed at evangelicals (in the right ‘language’ IYKWIM) showing what it truly is.

BUT I think you have to separate certain things out here. OK, a certain small subset of fundamentalists are extreme and isolationist. That does not make all homeschoolers that way–by and large, homeschoolers are out in their communities, participating with a whole lot of different folks and their kids are meeting a wider variety of people than children locked up with one group of other kids exactly their own age and from the same neighborhood all day. Even the ordinary evangelicals, who far outnumber the QFers, are out doing stuff all the time.

There’s a stereotype of homeschoolers as always hiding in their houses, afraid of the world and never talking to anyone. That, my friend, is a stereotype and it’s an untrue one. Kelly Green is an interesting homeschool blogger who recently wrote a couple of pieces on that: Home education: the image and Fundamentalism and home education. (Interesting–she cites a US census survey that found that 33% of homeschoolers queried cites religious reasons as their primary reason for homeschooling, which is less than I would have guessed and far less than the steretype.)

Anyway, gotta run. Enjoy.
Oh, just to add–my high school was indeed largely useless, which was too bad as I was very underprepared for college, which I loved. I did spend my junior year abroad though, and that was a very good decision for me. One reason I homeschool is because for the most part, we can do so much better than that! And often in less time, which gives us a lot of time for playing and doing neat stuff.

108

Nah, the way this works is they’ll blame the atheist academic elites and vote for a maverick who will make the rest of the country as stupid as them. You don’t really suppose any of this is an accident, do you?

109

Hmm, how many kids spend 12 years in public school and come out unemployable/functionally illiterate? A great many by my observations. In fact, virtually ALL such individuals were schooled. At the least, that argues against not being schooled as a glaring risk factor for such results.

Should they sue the school? Or their parents for forcing them to go to school? OR the state for mandating it? :wink:

Re’ the percentages of religious/“right-wing” homeschoolers, it must be noted that they are the ones most likely to be counted.

Most take a pretty structured approach to homeschooling. I suspect it has something to do with the concept of “original sin” and the presumed innate evilness of man. Kids/adults must be forced to learn, be good…they cannot be trusted to do it on their own.

I’m not just pulling this out of my ass; I have studied early texts and theories of pedagogy which clearly state this as the rationale for everything from corporal punishment to the intentional shaming of children.

One I read, a popular book of its day for parents, stated that in order to drive out this inborn animal nature, infants should be hit, shamed, ignored for long periods, not allowed to become “overly attached” to their parents, and reassured parents who worried this seemed cruel that “they will not remember any of it. They will simply be a well mannered child who obeys without knowing why.” :frowning: Better, this book declared, to break them as infants rather than allow them to grow into the wild, wayward beasts they would inevitably become if left to their own devices. (and got big enough to defend themselves/tell/hit back)

James Dobson is one who still promotes this philosophy and justifies it based on “scripture”. In his view, “The Strong Willed Child” is a child that MUST, at all costs, have his/her will BROKEN to produce an obedient servant of the parent and God.

The Ferber Method (“let them cry it out/learn to self-sooth”) operates on this same principle and comes out of this same tradition, though not from an overtly religious rationale, as far as I know.

ANYWAY, I digress.

They tend to use standardized curriculums (often produced by Christian companies and “Biblically based”), belong to national Christian homeschooling organizations (which constantly strive to be in the news and promote legislation in the name of ALL HSers:rolleyes:), and to comply with state regulations re’ registration and testing.

Many UNschoolers I’ve known are off the radar, in that they often choose NOT to comply with state regulations (since to do so would prevent them from UNschooling but require teaching to a test) and they generally tend to protect their privacy overall a lot more to avoid being persecuted.

When we took our son out of 1st grade (here in Oregon) we were SUPPOSED to register our intent to homeschool him with the Super. of Schools (and be granted “permission”…fuck THAT!:mad:) and then comply with the state curriculum requirements, including regular testing administered by a certified teacher (paid for out of OUR pocket).

Since we didn’t actually yank him out but waited until summer break, AND since we already knew we planned to relocate to Texas in a yr. or so, a state where no such requirements existed, we simply didn’t send that letter. (I did notify his school that he would not be coming back next year, just because there was a long waiting list and I felt it was unfair to deny someone else his spot).

I never knew an UNschooler who registered with anyone, regardless of the laws in their state. So, not counted.

Given that some states will actually take people’s children away for even HOMEschooling, much less say UNschooling, such reluctance to volunteer for possible persecution is understandable. And there are likely many more conventional homeschoolers out there who operate under the radar for that reason as well.

You know, when compulsory public schooling was instituted in the U.S. for the first time (I think it was in Mass. or Penn.?) children were rounded up and escorted to school at the point of a gun. Resistance was widespread.

Same thing goes on today, just not as blatently.

110

ETA (missed the window…getting my stuff together for my classes today…oh, the irony:p)

On the political/religious front, most UNschoolers I’ve known were very liberal or radically Apolitical (anarchists) and if they HAD any “religious” orientation, it was more of a “spiritual” or unconventional variety (Wiccans, New Age, free-thinking agnostics, etc…)

A few I’ve known have been more or less radically to the right on the spectrum (including a Libertarian family with 3 generations of UNschooled kids/adults to their credit.)

NONE have been your standard, stereotypical far right Republican “Teapartiers” or Right-Wing Fundamentalist Christians.

As I digressed about above, I suspect this has to do with deep differences in philosophy and theology regarding educational methods.

The sort of free thinking, trust in human nature and questioning of authority which defines UNschooling seems diametrically opposed to the “right-wing, fundamentalist” mind-set.

JMHO.

111

This whole ‘unschooling’ thing sounds similar to self-directed study and inquiry - which is exactly what good teachers try to do in the classroom when they’re not being forced into other tasks by instructional calendars, ridiculous behavioral regimes and standardized testing.

So my question is: Why aren’t parents pushing for this sort of thing in the schools through their school boards instead of jumping ship from the system altogether?

112

I think some of them are. But at the same time, other parents are pushing for different things they want. And the school system is a juggernaut that has no interest in responding anyway. Meanwhile, the kids are growing up fast and soon it will be too late.

Have you ever actually tried to get your school to change something? Most of the time, it’s an exhausting fight that leads nowhere. Many people end up in homeschooling after years of trying to cooperate with their schools for change. Then they finally pull out and try to repair the damage.

My friend, who has always been very committed to working in her kids’ schools, took her daughter out this year at the beginning of 2nd grade. K and 1st had been complete losses–little M couldn’t read much, worked desperately hard at behaving every day but couldn’t focus because the teachers routinely put her (quiet, well-behaved) next to the rowdiest kids for the sake of order. She put all her energy into keeping the kids around her quiet, as the teacher wanted, and learned nothing even though she wanted to. She needed intensive phonics but never got it at school, only at home. When her parents started her in 2nd grade and realized that this would be another wasted year, they pulled her out. She has thrived, now reads and does math much better, has started to enjoy learning again–and she’s going back to school for 3rd, so we’ll see how it goes.

My other friend is the PTA president this year at our local school, which is very well-regarded. Her 4th grader, my daughter’s friend, is one of those fairly bright kids who cannot endure boredom and must always be doing something (preferably something active; he usually sits by crouching on his toes, ready to leap into action–I call him Cobra). 4th grade has been a total waste. His teacher acknowledges that he needs extra work and enrichment but has not provided any despite frequent requests. He constantly reads under his desk while easily keeping up with the class, but is punished when he is caught. What has he learned this year? That school is a Catch-22 prison, where adults will refuse to help him learn and punish his efforts to learn more on his own. His parents are fed up, but afraid that 8 weeks before school ends is the wrong time to pull him out (and how do you teach such a kid with no preparation or backup?) and very worried about next year. (I have offered to help, but I can’t offer to teach him myself until summer.)

Nearly all of my public-schooling friends have stories like that, and it’s a ‘good’ school! It’s like trying to tear down a brick wall with a toothpick while your kid is being bricked in. (Pink Floyd anyone?)

113

Uh, yeah.

I went to college with a handful of homeschooled kids. Most of them were OK; they had the discipline required to perform at a college level, and, for the most part, did well.

One boy was “homeschooled” by conservative evangelical parents who made sure that he never saw or learned anything that wasn’t approved by the church. When he got to college, he was so ill-equipped socially and academically that his advisor told him to consider a college that was more suited to his background. What he was doing at a state university is beyond me.

One girl fit the quote above. She had been homeschooled and was so convinced of her own special genius that she failed several classes because she had never been exposed to different perspectives about anything, and saw no reason to learn any. I once watched her argue with a professor because she had no concept that there could be more than one way to do something; she had been taught that there was one and only one “right” way to do any given task; the professor was simply teaching a different way to interpret map data that ran counter to what the girl had been taught. She also had no concept of accountability because she had never been faced with deadlines, grades, attendance, or any of the “soft” skills that are necessary to survive in college or in the workforce. In her mind, she was a special snowflake who couldn’t be troubled to show up to class or do her work if she didn’t feel like it. IIRC, she flunked out of school and from what I heard through mutual friends after that, had a hard time holding down a job. She wasn’t stupid, she had just been taught that the rules didn’t apply to her. She ended up in the literal underclass anyway.

My point is that homeschooling is fine, but formal education is also about learning to function in a society that values traits like punctuality and responsibility. Mom might be ok with no deadlines, but your boss or the IRS isn’t going to be.

114

And plenty of homeschoolers do provide that structure. I worked with a guy whose wife homeschooled. There was a school room set up downstairs. The kids day started promptly at 8am with them dressed and in their desks. The school ran functionally like an old fashioned one room schoolhouse.

I worked with a women whose son was kicked out of four private schools before she started homeschooling him. He doesn’t have nearly as much structure in his schooling, but he can’t handle structure - that’s why he kept getting kicked out of school. She’s working at introducing structure at his pace - he started unable to sit for fifteen minutes (he’s in about fifth grade), she now has him sitting for an hour at a time. (Bright kid, just with a LOT of challenges). By college, he might manage to sit through regular lectures and have the discipline to turn in work regularly (she has a PhD and worked as a teacher for years, she does know what she needs to have him achieve for him to be successful at holding a job).

But other homeschoolers don’t apply any discipline. I suspect, from the homeschoolers I’ve met, that this is a minority of homeschoolers. But they give the other ones a bad name - sort of like those kids graduating who can’t read give the public school system a bad name. Public schools sometimes can’t manage to keep kids in the classroom - it isn’t like that sort of education is a guarantee of learning discipline and punctuality.

Public school is designed to drive down the middle of the road and not take out any mail boxes on either side. The majority of the kids do well enough. Homeschool has the advantage of being able to be tailored to each individual child and each situation. Which is a huge advantage. But not all homeschooling parents are going to take advantage of that. Some won’t know how. Some have their own preconceived notions that aren’t any better (and might be worse) than the public school system. Some have great intentions, but homeschooling is hard WORK. Some parents themselves just don’t have their own intellectual rigor. And some kid and parent combination are just poor matches for homeschooling (I couldn’t homeschool my daughter - battle of wills). But for those that can and do take advantage of being able to tailor an education for a situation - wow…

115

Wow…so only about 33% of homeschoolers do so due to religious reasons? I wonder where the stereotype of homeschoolers only being the kind where the parents avidly follow Focus on the Family protacal came from?
I don’t think the fundies who are extreme and “all christian only” are nessarily a very small group. That type of thinking is popular enough so that there’s a sizable print maganzine audience.
(I’m talking about The Old Schoolhouse)
Still at least its the minority…

116

Homeschooling started from two fairly simultaneous roots–there was the Holt unschooling movement and the evangelical religious homeschooling movement, though I think the unschoolers started a little sooner. So at one time, I guess for most of the 80’s when a lot of the legal questions were being worked out, the majority of homeschoolers were either evangelical or leftists (it was never all homeschoolers, though, you always had some people just doing it because schools weren’t working for them).

Well, that was over 20 years ago and homeschooling went mainstream a long time ago. It’s growing, it’s practically normal, and the growth rate is still increasing (which I think will have to slow down soon). But the stereotypes prevail and of course, are exaggerated even from the original realities.

A researcher named Gaither has written a book on the history of homeschooling in America, you might like to read it. This is his blog. It’s not exactly exciting, though. IIRC it focuses a little more on the evangelical side of things, though I may be misremembering.

It’s true that most of the homeschooling magazines are evangelical in tone. Home Education Magazine, the Holt publication, went out of print a few years ago and is sadly missed. Secular Homeschooling is still a baby publication, but is certainly setting the standard high for homeschooling periodicals.

A lot of the reason for this is found in homeschool demographics. You have the fairly large chunk of evangelicals, who are a large minority and quite a cohesive bloc. They’re found all over the conservative Protestant spectrum, moderate to extremely conservative, but they all speak approximately the same language, and they all want to do homeschooling/parenting ‘right’ and are willing to spend money to find out how. They’re a very easy market.

Then you have “everybody else”–secular, pagan, Catholics, Orthodox, Jewish, Buddhists and Mormons and Muslims and a whole lot of people who don’t bother about religion at all, and then another bunch who belong to various charter schools and do K-12 or this or that…and they are unschoolers or classical or CM or eclectic or something…and that’s a very squirrelly, fragmented market that is largely served on the Internet, not in print. Add them all up and it’s a good 60% or more of homeschoolers, but they aren’t cohesive and easy to serve. Most of those folks, unless they have some very good reason to spend money on a periodical that they really value, are going to go to blogs and websites, which are free and targeted right to them.

117

Dangerosa, I agree with you. Many parents who homeschool go into it wanting to do the best possible job by their kids, and they’re willing to put in the time and energy necessary to make it work. These are the families that make homeschooling successful.

But there is, I think, a certain romance to homeschooling that makes it attractive to parents who believe their children are “free spirits” and who believe that homeschooling simply means handing the kid a book and telling him to go at it. There is no attempt to teach the child that he is accountable for his behavior or his work. One of my classmates has a child in his class whose parents tried to “unschool” and went back to the public school when it became unmanageable. The child is unable to function in a classroom. He has limited social skills and no self-regulation to speak of. He can barely read or write and requires significant remediation. But, y’know, he’s a free spirit who should never be stifled.

118

I could see doing homeschooling if I had a young boy who needs to move for 10 minutes and read for 20 minutes (which as I understand describes most elementary-school-age boys). But they have to read for that 20 minutes (or whatever workable time), otherwise it isn’t going to work.

119

I agree, we have just that case of homeschooler down the street. Strange mother, unique snowflake of a child…that child is being set up to fail.

Which is why I think that homeschoolers should (and from my understanding, often are) be required to undergo oversight.

120

Wow, that’s very interesting that unschooling/lefty homeschooling started before religious homeschooling.

Maybe the reason why conservative religious homeschoolers are so visable is b/c they tend to be attached to movements which are very political and which really push homeschooling (eg Baptist Churches, Focus on Your Own Damn FamilyI)
I do think many religious homeschoolers are pretty much well balanced. Like their parents expose them to more then " ALL Christian all the time, we NEED to protect them from teh evil secular world" experiances and people.
I know unschooling and the thinking behind it has gotten some bad reactions…but on the OTHER hand, at least the parents who push unschooling aren’t those ones who are the kind that push overacheivement in their kids, so wittle Smashlie can go to a Name Brand College and get some high powered job, just b/c the PARENT wants the prestige. I gotta say I think THAT sort of parenting is even worse then the criticisms that have been levied against unschooling. Yes, there are special snowflakes and stories of really screwed up kids, but I think you can find them across the spectrum of educational philsophopies.
I think the key is to give a kid the foundation of basics, to offer kids a variety of interesting subjects, and see where that leads