Raising maximum oxygen volume for athletes: better RBC s or more?

[Leo_Bloom]

I was talking to an amateur competitive bicyclist about speed records, and she said her elementary physiology, with no matter how much training or doping, would prevent her from being in the running.

So I said I’d pay to send her to Switzerland for a liver transplant, new kidney, lungs, heart, whatever.

She said thanks, but what she would really like is new bone marrow, for better red blood cells (RBC).

Here I was stumped. In real life, do people who are great at achieving their VO[sub]2[/sub]Max have “better” RBCs (relative to the O[sub]2[/sub] meditation) or more of them?

[running_coach]

I have never heard of “better” RBCs. More RBCs will improve performance but carries a risk of dying from a combination too high a concentration of RBCs and dehydration.

VO2Max is simply a measure of the body’s ability to utilize oxygen. I could have the same % of RBCs as Lance Armstrong but not perform anywhere near perform his level.

[dtilque]

@runner pat

I could have the same % of RBCs as Lance Armstrong but not perform anywhere near perform his level.

You have to take EPO to have that…

[deltasigma]

I didn’t plan on this (but I never do). I spent about an hour I guess on the wiki entry for hemoglobin and of course the inevitable side trips to translate it. I’m sure I didn’t even get halfway through but I think I got enough to be useful.

It seems that hg is also used for transporting CO2 and nitric oxide. The NO part will be important in a bit (I think). It also seems that genetic variations between and within species are common.

Hemoglobin consists mostly of protein subunits (the “globin” chains), and these proteins, in turn, are folded chains of a large number of different amino acids called polypeptides.
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Variations in hemoglobin amino acid sequences, as with other proteins, may be adaptive. For example, recent studies have suggested genetic variants in deer mice that help explain how deer mice that live in the mountains are able to survive in the thin air that accompanies high altitudes. A researcher from the University of Nebraska-Lincoln found mutations in four different genes that can account for differences between deer mice that live in lowland prairies versus the mountains. After examining wild mice captured from both highlands and lowlands, it was found that: the genes of the two breeds are “virtually identical–except for those that govern the oxygen-carrying capacity of their hemoglobin”. “The genetic difference enables highland mice to make more efficient use of their oxygen”, since less is available at higher altitudes, such as those in the mountains.[19] Mammoth hemoglobin featured mutations that allowed for oxygen delivery at lower temperatures, thus enabling mammoths to migrate to higher latitudes during the Pleistocene.[20]

The side trip exploring globins was fun. Anyway, the part about the mice didn’t really make sense since I couldn’t figure out if hg could bind 4 O2’s, what did oxygen-carrying capacity mean? Fortunately I ran across this before I gave up.

Nitric oxide is bound to specific thiol groups in the globin protein to form an S-nitrosothiol which dissociates into free nitric oxide and thiol again, as the hemoglobin releases oxygen from its heme site. This nitric oxide transport to peripheral tissues is hypothesized to assist oxygen transport in tissues, by releasing vasodilatory nitric oxide to tissues in which oxygen levels are low.[41]

That may not seem like much, but NO is a powerful vasodilator - it’s how Viagra works. So I’m assuming that the first wording was just less than artful. IDK.

[running_coach]

@dtilque

You have to take EPO to have that…

Wouldn’t matter, I was talking about similar levels whether drug induced or not. Also, reaching 50% (similar to .08 for drunk driving, evidence of doping even without a positive test) is possible by altitude training for some people.

[Aestivalis]

The Wiki articles for VO2Max and EPO both indicate that VO2Max is directly linked to RBC. That should mean that doping will improve VO2Max.

[running_coach]

@Aestivalis

The Wiki articles for VO2Max and EPO both indicate that VO2Max is directly linked to RBC. That should mean that doping will improve VO2Max.

Of course it is but it’s not the whole picture.
From your Wiki article.
Factors affecting VO2 max

Cardiac output, pulmonary diffusion capacity, oxygen carrying capacity, and other peripheral limitations like muscle diffusion capacity, mitochondrial enzymes, and capillary density are all examples of VO2 max determinants. The body works as a system. If one of these factor is sub-par, then the whole system loses its normal capacity to function properly.

[blindboyard]

This is why Lance Armstrong started the day with blood transfusions. A bit of extra claret.