Perhaps a parallel would be Lenten Friday fish fries. Sure, Lent is a time for abstinence and reflection, but it need not be miserable. As Jesus said, "When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show others they are fasting. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.
Here’s a general question: where is it written that religious observations HAVE to be unpleasant?
When I was a kid, the Catholic Church enforced the “meatless Friday” rule all year round. I always obeyed the rule. Why not? It meant we got to go out for a big cheese pizza every Friday night at our favorite local joint! It didn’t feel like a sacrifice at all.
Are kosher laws extremely hard on Orthodox Jewish kids? They COULD be… but an Orthodox kid who grows up in a religious home in a religious neighborhood gets USED to the way things are. To ME, a ban on cheeseburgers would seem like an imposition, but to a kid who grows up in a home and region where that’s normal, the kosher laws DON’T seem like a huge burden. To him, putting cheese on a burger is like putting ketchup on corn flakes- it’s just something you don’t do because it feels weird and wrong.
Fasting CAN be a very hard thing… or it CAN be a temporary discipline. Most Muslims fast for part of the day, then eat at other parts of the day.
In religious life, and in secular life, many of us do small symbolic actions. They’re not all SUPPOSED to be a huge deal or an agonizing sacrifice.
I would say that going from sunup to sundown without even a drink of water is a hardship observant Muslims feel, especially in the climes where most of them live.
I dunno - I managed it.
The whole time I lived in the UAE (3 years + many other lengthy visits), I have attended just one iftar dinner. It is certainly not the norm but is popular among non-Muslim Western expats.
Hmmmmmm… I have lost weight this year. And last year. I have also gained weight some years.
Avoid over-eating rich, fried foods and you will not gain weight. If you don’t you will. Ramzan does not change that basic fact.
Novelty Bobble:
It’s not supposed to “fool” anyone. It’s supposed to accomplish what we want without violating the laws that G-d laid out.
You seem to be under the impression that G-d said “Don’t ride in an elevator.” He didn’t say that. He said “Refrain from (physically) creative work.” This work has a precise definition. Using an elevator in an ordinary manner (e.g., pressing the buttons which actively completes a circuit to achieve your deisres) is creative work. Using an elevator that is pre-set to stop on every floor does not consist of creative work. Far from “fooling G-d”, we are obeying him and every round-about contrivance that puts our convenience in line with said obedience is an expression of how important G-d’s word is, to us.
Fear Itself:
As long as he won’t have to pay money, or carry something (like a bus pass) in an area with no Eruv, he sure can. Although it’s recommended that one not do that (or ride a Sabbath elevator) except in circumstances of great need, because it gives (to observers who don’t know the details of his contrivances to avoid Sabbath violation) the appearance that he is doing something forbidden.
Breaking a law, and offending against one’s religion, does not mean one is forbidden from practising that religion forever. Almost — in the spirit of repentance — the contrary.
Why should a murderer who keeps kosher, in addition to imprisonment have to eat what his religion proscribes ?
And when I was living with the Jewish gentleman I was default shabbas goy for the neighborhood. The verbal dancing around to get me to do something was amusing. [you can not directly ask someone to do stuff like turn on a light or turn on an oven, or drive someone somewhere.]
I will say that in general they are sensible, and if someone needs to go to the hospital, or get an insulin injection from someone it is allowed to get down and do it. Need takes precedent over laws. [though there was some crap going on a few years back about some ultra orthodox and ambulances or something like that.]
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Being the token muslim made me very popular for pub crawls, he will at least stay sober! Never had so much coke and pepsi in my life.
I agree with you so far.
Disagree. That’s not what he’s quoted as writing to Moses.
That’s what the rabbis have decided the Lord meant, not what the Lord said.
I’ve heard it argued among Jews that “God deliberately put those loopholes in the law for us to exploit”, but that seems like obvious BS.
This contrasts greatly with what you see in Protestantism. Most Protestant traditions have few “rules” about this and that. Certainly there are no rules that go down to the specificity of Orthodox Jewish viewpoints on “work” on the Sabbath. Protestants, to the extent that they observe a sabbath, generally see the “do not work” prohibition not as something to pick apart and write dissertations analyzing different nuances of the rules and how to do what you want despite the rule, but as a strong message saying, “Hey! Take a break!”. The point is to take a break, relax, spend time with family, spend time with church members, read the Bible, pray, etc. If your way to take a break is to pile the kids in the car, drive to Tennessee, and have a big bonfire and sing hymns, go for it.
Likewise, when Protestants say “do not murder”, they mean don’t murder people in a broad, moral sense. If you want someone dead, and try to approach the situation to try to find a way to somehow get them killed without violating the “do not murder” prohibition, you will have violated it anyway.
Also see Matthew 5:28. Saying, “I only kissed her!” (or only had oral sex, which isn’t really sex anyway, or only did heavy petting, etc.) is no defense to the sin of adultery. The point is your attitude and intent, not the specifics of your behavior and whether you found a way to get around the rules.
Having lived in the ME for over 16 years(Saudi Arabia and Qatar) I’ve lived through my share of Ramadans. There were some Muslims who took it to extremes, staying up all night etc. Saudi they hired non Muslims to take up the slack so to speak to finish the work days. There It was very very strict for non Muslims about eating drinking etc in public. (Qatar not so much, restaurants were open but eating areas curtained off)
I always thought that how a Muslim ,or anyone for that matter who has certain rules to follow , interprets the spirit of Ramadan , Lent, Shabbat etc . It’s between them and their God.
Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It’s what separates us from the animals…
except the weasel.
So, in a discussion with an Orthodox Jew, about how God wants Jews to act… you cite the New Testament.
Good job. I’m sure that’ll be super-effective.
Monty:
What, do you want the quote in Hebrew? “Lo Sa-asu Kol Melakha” - translation, “Do not do any melakha”, a word which has historically been loosely translated as “work” but is one of several Hebrew words which can translate to the English “work,” and has a more precise definition than simply that. The phrase “physically creative work” is accurate to the various Biblical contexts that the word “melakha” is used in.
Look, I’m not going to tell you that there’s some sort of objective proof that the Rabbinically-determined meaning is direct tradition from Moses on down. But I will say that you can’t just discount that tradition either. The Rabbinic Jewish understanding of the Torah is really the only filter through which modern times has ever seen the Torah. You might disbelieve the institution of the Talmud and Rabbinate, and seek some sort of external clues as to an alternate meaning, but nothing changes the fact that the Torah as we know it is what we know from the teachings of Jewish Rabbis.
Sounds about as legit as people giving up chocolate or coffee for lent. Such sacrifices!
There is a woman that has worked for me - helping me out with housework 1 day a week - for about 15 years. She is an Eastern European Muslim and observes Ramadan.
Her and her family don’t stay up all night but they do shift their schedules a little bit - eating a large meal daily at 1AM or so and they tend to sleep a little later than usual. It’s more difficult in the summer - no water or liquids during the day is tougher in hot weather and sunset is much later which extends the fasting hours.
So I got this text from her Saturday night – “YAY I can have coffee tomorrow, you know what I mean”
And I knew what she meant… totally TMI but her period had started. And apparently there’s an exception for menstruation. The next day over coffee and doughnuts we talked about how sometimes it was a good thing that her culture treated menstruation as an illness rather than a normal bodily function.
I’m not discounting anything. I’m merely pointing out that the rabbis interpreted the wording as, you say, with a filter (IIRC, some have called it a fence).