Again, I’m leaving them out because those movies have obviously already “gone there.” I’m asking about genres that have heretofore stopped short of that level of violence. There’s not much sense in asking the question if you include movies that have obviously not stopped short before. I’m asking about a genre-leap here; about a genre convention that has heretofore been limited to within the precincts of a certain genre, but now seems to have turned up in another genre. It doesn’t make much sense to ask if it’s turned up before in the genre that’s named for it.
It’s possible you misunderstand my question. I’m not asking if Rambo is the most violent movie ever made. Obviously it’s not. I’m making the distinction BECAUSE it’s obviously not the most violent movie ever made.
So basically, you’re asking if Rambo is the most violent big dumb action movie ever. That’s pretty narrow, don’t you think?
But if that’s the question, I’d still put Starship Troopers right up there with it, but Rambo is definitely a very close number two (or possibly number one, I haven’t watched ST in a while).
People ARE “sussing” your question and NOT agreeing with you, at which point you either complain they don’t undersand, or you tortuously twist your question around to try and make everyone agree, and they don’t, and again you say we don’t understand.
I certainly don’t understand why the answers MUST be, “Yes, you are entirely correct.”
(*And just to put this whole hijack-fest into perspective, imagine how ridiculous it would be for me to begin a lengthy debate on the words “big” and “dumb” or even “action,” all highly—highly—debatable in this context, but since I actually understand what you mean, I’m *not gonna start such a hijack.)
How do you feel about Sin City’s levels of violence, same with Planet Terror (one of the most gruesome movies out there, certainly not mainstream though, but it did well in the box office, and its quite violent without really being torture porn (the doctor scenes alone were quite intense, and there’s not really any violence there, just pictures). But Sin City’s always been the big one for me in terms of violent blockbusters that’s NOT torture porn.
Rambo I’d put it alongside films like The Condemned (which wasn’t that bad, though Battle Royal the Japanese film is WAY better)- where they’re mindless action movies starring a highly visible actor trying to cash in on that guys popularity (yes, in my book, Stallone is equal to Stone Cold Steve Austin, take it as you will).
I would nominate a film like *The Passion of the Christ *as well, as that’s quite violent to where I have NO desire to actually fully see it all.
And I can honestly say I was more disgusted by the Rape scene in A Clockwork Orange than by anything in Rambo, just because of the psychology of the film. But I have no idea if ACO counts as a blockbuster film or if it was a niche film when released- I would put down Clockwork at the head of any list though of disturbingly violent films, but it was made before my time so I don’t know how successful it was.
Same with Pan’s Labyrinth- another movie that disturbed me MORE than Rambo (Though I admit it was more for the googly Hand monster than the Face Scenes, but still).
For me the violence is in did it bother me, or did I remember it- now when I think back at Rambo- I have nothing really disturbing that stood out in the film for me, it felt like mindless action, and cartoonish violence, because of WHO Rambo is. He stands for something, sure, but by his presence he “dumbs” down the violence content of the film.
Meanwhile, a scene like the Curb-Stomping Scene from American History X- that’s the sort of film scene that LIVES ON in my mind as just being HORRIFYING. It was unexpected by me, it was done by a person who at that point in the film I knew nothing about, and it felt REAL to me. That’s whats more violent and disturbing in movies- when even though I know its a FILM, I am still disturbed by it. Pan’s Labyrinth- Creepy, sure, and violent, but at the end of the Night, I can sleep knowing it’s just a movie, and that’s just silly special effects. Same reason why NO *Die Hard *movie had ever caused me to lose any sleep. I can tell its stylized, and that sort of thing isn’t Real.
Rambo falls into that category of “silly violence” by the very character of Rambo being in the film. The acts perpetuated by him may be violent sure, but anything he does, it doesn’t bother me as much because I’m jaded to his character.
If i saw Superman beat up a bad guy, and then kill him. I’d be surprised, and it’d be odd, but it wouldn’t freak me out. However, if I saw my NEIGHBOR beat up and kill a person- it’d disturb me MUCH more. That’s the issue I have with Rambo- the context destroys the violence factor.
It’s one reason why the “Torture Porn” category of films are successful, Saw I and Hostel both were done not really using “evil villains” but ordinary characters. So the violence perpetuated by those characters was MORE intense and violent than something else (Saw did this particularly well with the main characters being forced to react to the scenes as ordinary people in extraordinarily horrific situations). That’s what STARTED the torture-porn genre HERE in the US and got it to the semi-mainstream status that it enjoys.
I understand you’re trying to point out a film as being violent, but to me that film will never be as violent as other films simple because the context of the film dilutes the horror/violence (same with Starship Troopers- a gory film, but not one that stood out as violent, but it’s been a LONG time since I’ve seen it unedited, so my memory fails me there).
That may be not what you’re looking for, but it’s just my opinion and how I view “violence” in films- because without context and meaning, a violent scene can be violent but come across as nearly harmless and forgettable to me, and perhaps that may be the issue others have with Rambo as well. :shrug: YMMV, and it probably does.
But there ya go. Mine 2 cents, yours for free.
Please, please try again. The only way I can address your points is to retype the entire thread. I have only disagreed, and that constructively, as part of the discussion, when people have suggested movies that are as violent. I have even agreed with at least one of them. When there’s been confusion as to my choice of words, I’ve tried to clarify that. There is NO WHERE in this thread any example of me suggesting that disagreement with my opinion re: Rambo was unacceptable. Cite me a cite and I’ll apologize. The only hijack I’ve asked people to drop was continued harping on the meaning of the word “mainstream” after I’d clarified my intended meaning over and over again.
I’m willing to concede that Rambo was the most violent mainstream movie released in North America on January 25, 2008. Any other attempt at categorizing invites endless debate. This thread stands as proof.
Another good example. Sin City’s violence certainly equals Rambo’s in both intensity and duration. But I wonder if the comic-bookness served to soften it somewhat? Still, I think it belongs in any list we come up with.
Hmm. Condemned has some of the intensity, but not really the duration. But a worthy addition to the list nonetheless.
Yeah, so far this movie is the closest, IMO. However, though the intensity and duration certainly give Rambo a run for its money, the body count surely doesn’t. Still, the onslaught-ness of Passion puts it near the top of the list, IMO.
I agree, although the violence in ACO was almost entirely psychological; I was mostly talking about the clinical, anatomical, vivisection-by-bullets splatterfest of Rambo.f
The Face scene equals Rambo in intensity. For me Rambo was The Face Scene stretched to, what, a 30 minute sequence.
An interesting point. But his very seriousness (no parting oneliners from Rambo; he’s definitely the strong silent type) added to the seriousness of the violence for me.
Yeah, the Curb scene from AHX definitely belongs in any list of Most Violent Moments in Film History.
That’s an interesting point; Funny Games works on a similar principal, IMO. Making it that much more disturbing. You can’t get away from context.
Well, the seriousness of the political context of Rambo added something to the context. But Rambo is of course Rambo.
I think that’s what is the BIG differential factor for me.
Rambo is Rambo. To me, I grew up on Rambo II (He was the Do-Gooder that went into Vietnam and kicked ass and saved the POWs). I didn’t get hit by the Rambo: First blood until much later after I wasn’t a lil’ kid.
So Rambo when he performs acts of violence is HIGHLY Diluted. Rambo can do violent acts on a person, and I won’t care, because I feel that Rambo is the “Good Guy”. He’ll only punish the people who deserve it. I don’t care when Superman beats up bad guys, I enjoy Batman beating up thugs, and when Bruce Willis goes around killing people in the Die Hard Quadrology, I know it’s gonna be okay. Because they’re the “Good guys”. That’s what softens it for me.
So I don’t care how gory it gets or anything, because I might get a slight visceral reaction of “oh man! that was pretty sick” but that’s about it. It doesn’t linger in my mind and its fleeting. Because it’s filed away under “Well, it’s Movie Karma: Whoever the Good guys beat up, they beat up for a good Reason. So the worse they get beat up, the MORE the bad guy deserved it.”
It’s why as a Kid, I could EASILY watch films like Rambo II and III, and Aliens (the 2nd one, first one scared the CRAP outta me) with no worries. It was that Movie Karma Logic that made the Violence okay for me to tolerate.
It’s movies that take that AWAY from me that bug me. That’s when the violence becomes more than just cartoonish, when I’m forced to THINK about the choices and actions being presented. Or when the Bad guys are doing it.
Another scene that struck my head: Red Dragon, the Prequel they made to Silence of the Lamb. There were two scenes in there that I couldn’t handle- The cop looking at the scene of the crime and explaining the killers motives (Of why he put mirrors into the eyes), and the scene of watching the villain get a blow job by a blind girl with a crush on him, while he watches film of the next family he’s going to attack
Those sorts of scenes are FAR FAR more disturbing to me than watching Rambo or any other generic “Good guy” Mow down hundreds and hundreds of “bad guys” no matter HOW realistic you portray the killing. I’m more likely to laugh at the sheer ridiculousness of watching the bad guys attack a Good guy and keep dying in such gruesome ways, than be able to watch a SINGLE scene like that *Red Dragon *one.
That to me is what creates violence- the context of it.
But I can see that your views on Violence is more on the realism displayed, and this might have greater emphasis than the context of the violence. So I’ll gladly disagree with your premise, but I understand at least where you’re coming from with it. I just don’t share the same views. But at least i’ve learned a bit more about yours, and hopefully you about mine.
Yes, there are far more disturbing movies than Rambo, with less of the graphic exploding-skin-sacks type of violence in Rambo. Henry, Portrait of a Serial Killer; Audition; Funny Games–all far more disturbing.
Extra Side Note:
I mentioned Sin City because I loved the film, and didn’t think it was violent (except for many the final scene w/ Yellow Bastard), but even then, it was Good Guy Karma, and Yellow Bastard was a VERY bad guy in my mind by his actions in the film.
However, after I showed that film to my sibling [age 16], she just turned to me and said “it was a good movie. But it was far too violent and disturbing. I don’t think I should have seen it.”
She had never made any comments like that before, and she’d seen plenty of R-rated films on TV and some in the theaters. But that was the first time when I felt bad as an Older Sibling in that maybe she was too young for the film. She appreciated it and understood why I liked it, and wanted her to see it; but she realized it was far too much for her, and even now she considers that on her list of most violent films she’s ever seen. That’s when it kinda hit me that people ARE wired differently on these sorts of things, as before then I never had considered it too violent. I guess I was wrong. And now I think about these things a bit more when picking out films to watch with friends and family- I need to think of the context of how THEY will view the film as well.
The problem is, you’re creating a distinction that doesn’t exist. If Saw and Hostel are not mainstream movies, no matter how you define “mainstream,” then neither is Rambo a mainstream movie, because they both exist for the same reason: for the visceral titillation of the audience through exploitative gore and over-the-top violence. The only difference is the manner in which the gore and violence is inflicted. In effect, they are both “violence porn.” The question of weather a mainstream movie contains violence similar to these genre movies is an interesting one, but asking if there’s “another” mainstream movie that’s as violent as Rambo is misleading, because Rambo itself is not a mainstream movie.
I’m done repeating myself, so feel free to backtrack and read upthread. Otherwise, I’m gonna pretty much ignore hijacks from here on out. I’ve made the sense of my question pretty clear at this point and I’m not interested in throwing good effort after bad. If you honestly cannot understand the question at this point, you either never will or simply refuse to. If you refuse to understand my clarifications of what connotations I meant by using (or misusing) the word “mainstream”–I’ve even restated the question entirely without the friggin word; it’s bizarre that you continue to hold onto it–then I’m sorry but you’re on your own from here.
I’ve not seen the newest Rambo to comment on the OP, but didn’t Rambo feature at least one death? The cop who was trying to shoot Rambo with a rifle, he either fell off a cliff or from a helicopter.
I don’t know if I agree with you… Rambo was certainly violent, but there have been more violent mainstream movies, as evidenced by the multitudes of films discussed here.
However, you are onto something. I was actually thrown out of my somnolescent movie mindstate by the rather graphic bayonetting of a child.
There are snapshots of Rambo that linger in the mind, like the smell of something that you can’t shake out of your nose. Thos images are almost all violent in some regard.
I admit I haven’t read the thread so take my comment with a grain of salt, but has anyone mentioned Rambo yet? The new one not the original. I hear that movie is pretty violent.
That’s very funny, but it’s more destructive than constructive. If you’ve read the thread, you’ll see that the only contention has been in the hijack devoted to wordchoice in the OP. Whenever anyone has actually responded to the OP itself and suggested a movie, however, *that *discussion has gone on quite civilly and constructively. Which you’d know if you actually read the thread.
But it’s always nice to see a lurker delurk just keep a thread negative.
Well, I’m not a movie maven in particular, and I understand where the OP is coming from in his “mainstream” distinction: Rambo is “mainstream” because a non-movie-maven housewife like me might conceivably have gone to see it, because when it came out, it was billed as a straight action picture, and us “just folks” do occasionally take in a straight action picture.
Whereas Saw and Hostel, although they may be “mainstream” in the sense of references to them in pop culture being widespread, still are billed as horror flicks, which is different, and “just folks” don’t normally take in horror flicks.
I think by “mainstream” you meant like “mainstream drama”, “drama” in the Netflix sense of “not comedy, not horror, not documentary, not family”, et cetera. Your question would be something like, “Are there any other dramas out there that are as violent as Rambo?”
And Rambo is a blockbuster, not going by box office, but by sheer ubiquity in the culture. Saw and Hostel et al are not international household words spanning two generations the way Rambo is, and that’s what makes Rambo a “blockbuster”. Quibbling about semantics about box office receipts is kinda beside the point.
So the question is, then, are there any other dramas that are as deeply embedded in pop culture that are as violent as Rambo?
