… nor were there any cops at 86th or City Hall this morning on the 4/5/6, two of the biggest (next to Grand Central) stops on the east side.
I just thought of how this random search will help us prevent terrorist bombings. According to the President the reason why the terrorist attack us is because they hate our freedom. If we give up our freedom for no damn good reason, maybe they’ll stop hating us and leave us alone.
And herein lies the problem.
As the London attacks of two weeks ago show, the people who do this sort of thing are often well-organised and co-ordinated. They probably don’t just randomly walk into any station.
What is there to stop them from, say, sending someone down into the Wall St. station to see whether there are any cops around? When the lookout comes back up and confirms that the coast is clear, the person with the device goes down.
Of course, it’s possible that there are cops on the train itself, but methinks that it’s a bit late by then.
Let’s say it’s reasonable for the sake of argument.
I still don;t see what your specific problem is. A naroctics detective is waiting for you to step off the train. So far, I don’t see what you have to complain about.
And I’m sure they’re joined in that opinion by members of the Aryan Nation, the KKK, and the neo-Nazis. What of it?
Specifically, what happens?
“Move to New York and find out for yourself,” is not, by the way, an argument laudable for its cogency. I’ve been to New York. Nothing happened. So, I have already found out for myself. What do you have to ADD to what I know?
Perhaps. But I’m not so sanguine.
Didn’t the so-called Patriot Act give some powers to the feds to seize the assets of foreign persons. Isn’t there a portion of it which says something like: “if the United States is engaged in armed hostilities, the president may seize property from foreign persons which the president determines has aided in such hostilities?” Doesn’t it also state that conviction of the defendant isn’t a requirement for seizure of these assets? Doesn’t the Patriot Act also make it illegal to knowningly conceal and carry, or attempt to carry, into or out of the U.S. more than $10,000 in cash and that the penalty for doing such is forfeiture?
Unacceptable. Is it a reasonable concern for our fellow to be worried that there’s a narc waiting for him down the line? Yes or no?
When I finally snap and decide to blow people up because I know they are useless idiots like Eve and Fiveyearlurker, I’ll make sure to keep my bomb in a sealed and labelled parcel and tell the cops I am a courier and that they can keep me off the train and not allow me to deliver my package, but I ain’t opening it because it’s a federal offense.
However, I’ll probably sneak in through the tunnels like the taggers do everyday.
The problem is the one’s who feel safer like this are the ones that deserve neither liberty nor safety. I feel LESS safe because of this, because I know terrorism isn’t a real threat. I’m more likely to get mugged than I am to get blown up.
Here’s a better idea STOP BOMBING COUNTRIES AND STEALING THEIR OIL, then you’ll be a lot safer.
And oh yeah, I know that the entire history of terrorism was written since last months bombing in London but just in case you’ve never heard of ISRAEL, suicide bombers quite often blow themselves up at the checkpoint there.
Erek
Here’s a quote from Albert Einstein that tangentally applies:
THe prestige of government has undoubtedly been lowered considerably by the Prohibition law. For nothing is more destructive of respect for the government and the law of the land than passing laws which cannot be enforced. It is an open secret that the dangerous increase in crime in this country is closely connected with this.
The dangers this proposes:
It eliminates constitutional protection against unreasonable search and seizure.
It makes a good number of people angry, and I’d be more worried about a disenfranchized kid with a knife from Brooklyn than I am about a suicide bomber.
To all those that support this action: I hate you, and I hope a terrorist kills you. Here’s why, because people like you are cavalier with OTHER people’s freedom because the loss of freedom doesn’t really impact you. So you think that the loss of freedom doesn’t really impact others, but it does, it impacts a whole lot of others, but you are incapable of seeing that, and refuse to listen to anyone who tries to explain why it deeply disturbs them. I hope that every person who is apathetic about freedom gets fucked really badly by their apathy.
Everyone is looking over the horizon for the foreign terrorist, so they put extreme measures to protect themselves from that. They never think about domestic terrorism, or the fact that what inspires a domestic terrorist into action is the loss of freedom in exactly these sorts of circumstances. They think that an Arab suicide bomber is going to be stopped by this, and they may very well get stopped, but the domestic terrorist understands intrinsically how the American system works, and they will think of all the ideas that the naysayers in this thread have tried to point out, and they will get around that system and find a way to kill you.
The reason these things are a bad idea, is because it BREEDS terrorism, it doesn’t discourage it. Go hang out in a west bank camp, and then come back here and tell me you really think that heightened security discourages terrorism.
Enjoy your panacea, I hope it makes your death painless.
Erek
Specifically what happens? Black “homey looking” people in NY get harrassed by the police more then other people. Do you live in some bubble?
I had a black friend perfectly minding his own business, who was stopped for no fucking reason, and hauled in to central booking. His crime? He was locked out and on his way to a friend’s house to pick up spare keys. he didn’t have ID on him, so he was hauled away until his identity could be varified.
[/QUOTE]
My list of anecdotes about my black friends getting harrassed could go on for weeks. You don’t live here, so you have no fucking clue what goes on here.
Obviously. And now that Biffy the Elephant Shrew has clarified, I’m glad you’re not advising Joanne Webb. It’s fortunate that the charges were later droppped; but the law hasn’t be struck down.
Any takers on this one? Bricker, if you have a moment, I wouldn’t mind a lawyer’s opinion on this. (unless you charge me for it… ;))
And what are the odds if you have no security, no one checking anything? Considerably worse than 1 in 700.
And has anyone addressed my comment, above, about Israeli security officers actually intercepting attempted bombers?
Let’s say someone does detonate a bomb in the subway. Let’s say 200 people are killed (the London bombings killed 50 or so).
Chances of being killed in this bomb:
200 killed/4.5 Million daily ridership (.0004)
Meanwhile, consider the following:
Chances an American will die in in a transport accident of unintentional causes (includes car, bus, train, etc.) in their lifetime:
1 in 77
Chances an American will die in a railway accident of unintentional causes in their lifetime:
1 in 133,045 (.00007)
In other words, this hypothetical bomb is only slightly more likely to kill you than the subway accidentally crashing. Do you live in fear of subway crashes? Are you willing to give up your personal liberty – your consitutionally protected right to be free of unwarranted search and seizure – for some slim chance of preventing them?
I know I’m not. And I’m not willing to do it for the slim chance of preventing bombs either.
Smooooooch! I love you too!
Okay, let’s try this:
I’m a terrorist. I see that NYC has instituted random searches of the subway passengers.
Do I
a) cower at home, because I might get caught
b) scout the stations and try to sneak through one with no police presence
c) bomb a section of aboveground track or sneak in via maintenance tunnels, like the graffiti artists do (coincidentally, making it possible for me to NOT be a suicide bomber, but just a bomber)
In other words, you argue that random searches make “A” and “B, then caught” more likely.
I say they make C more likely.
Yes, you have given up your constitutional right for a less than 1 in 700 chance of finding one bomb in 7. But you know what? The police have said that if you do not want to be searched, you can refuse and not enter the train.
Do you not see how absolutely useless this is in finding bombers? And my constitutional rights have now been voilated for no fucking reason at all. Oh yeah, the reason is because Eve needs a false sense of security.
Well, good, as long as you understand that, then.
So, there is no such thing as an “institutional culture” that causes some organizations to behave more professionally than others?
I’m a “useless idiot” for disagreeing with you?