You can get rape emphatic, you can get the rape polite
You can get the rape with Indians, a truly charming sight
You can get the rape on Horseback, they all say its brisk and gay
But you see the type of rape depends on what you pay
It depends on what you pay.
The rape Venetian needs a blue lagoon
The rape with moonlight or without a moon
Moonlight is expensive but it’s in demand
The military rape is done with drummers and a band…
(from The Fantasticks)
My point was the slightly different one that arguably some people could joke about P.R. <without> ever wishing it on others, and indeed while believing/acting strongly against it in practice.
Followed by my proposal that even if you <do> think P.R. could ever be an acceptable form of punishment, you’d have a moral obligation (as with any punishment) to try and make sure it’s meted out only to those to whom you specifically prove it’s merited – which is inarguably not what’s going on today with P.R…
Hey Enki,
I accept your apology. Since you enjoy quotes, here’s one for you:
"We have rudiments of reverence for the human body, but we consider as nothing the rape of the human mind. "
- Eric Hoffer
I would stretch that quote for this instance and say that prison rape is a rape of justice itself.
It’s not that I am too uptight to personally appreciate a joke no matter how vile the subject. If the joke is funny, I’ll even laugh.
My point was that prison rape is not “karmic justice,” because who will rape the rapist that raped the rapist. . . and so on? Karmically for rape to become justice, we would all have to become rapists to satisfy someone else’s karmic balance. Karma doesn’t work that way and neither should the American legal system (which in it’s purest idealogical form is something that I bleieve strongly in.) I love that in theory anyway, a person pays for crimes as proscribed by his fellow citizens; and that any mis-carry or excess of that punishment is a misjustice to us all.
It isn’t my ethical code that I want people like Enki to adopt but rather those found in our Constitution, and in sources such as Thomas Payne’s, Common Sense. If you are convinced that there is no better way to be, then who am I to tell you otherwise?
Btw, Sorry JarbabyJ for continuing to hijack your thread.
I’ve heard that a hefty percentage of people who have been convicted of rape and molestation are innocent. It is sickness to falsely accuse someone of rape or molestation. This happens all to often where I live to single fathers and men who date manipulative women. I do not wish rape on anyone, no matter how sick and depraived they are.
Also I’ve heard that many of those who have prison sex are consentual. I’m not convinced that prison rape happens all that much.
cite?
and…cite?
I only enjoy sex behind bars when I can go back in for a drink afterwards.
**Snugglebear **, I think you may want to check up on the statistics you’ve heard. I’m pretty sure you’ve heard them wrong.
As for **jar’s ** position, I agree wholeheartedly on a moral standpoint. Sexual Assault is not something you wish on anyone - regardless of who they are or what they have done. Prison rape is a bad thing. It should never, EVER happen.
There is a difference though between WISHING it on someone, joking about it (which is wrong), and the way we react to it when it happens. I think many people here have said they don’t WISH it on anyone, but don’t feel overly “bad” when it does happen.
I think this is an important distinction to make.
I do think, though, that if we’re all honest with ourselves, we may be horrified to find out that we don’t react as strongly about rapists and abusers being sexually assaulted while serving time for their crimes as we would for, say, a child victim.
I mean - I’m a compassionate individual. I don’t want to see ANYONE hurt, regardless of their past and their wrongdoings. But I’m also honest enough to know that, though I’m horrified that I actually feel that way, I do not react to the assault of an inmate in the same way as I do to that of an innocent victim.
Maybe I’m not compassionate enough. Maybe I’m not good a person enough. I wish I didn’t feel that way. I’d like to blame my own personal history and say it’s because I’m still raw about certain things…
I know of a young man who raped and beat up his partner on a daily basis for years until it finally ended. When he got to prison, had a pretty rough time. He’s been beaten up, he’s been likely assaulted, and the prison guards have turned a deaf ear to it. Is it right? No. Do I wish it to happen to him? No. Do I feel bad that it happened to him? Yes. Did he deserve it? No. No one does. Is it wrong for his victim to feel like it’s an odd form of justice catching up to him? Ask me. There are days when I feel it’s poetic justice. I don’t know if it is wrong. I don’t know if it’s right. But I dare anyone to pick an argument with me about it.
Maybe I’m just a bad person with faulty morals. But until it happens to you, it’s pretty hard to comprehend. I agree, no one deserves this kind of thing. But I think that if we all dig deep down, we’ll find out we honestly don’t feel the same way about these men when this shit happens to them - not the same way we feel about their innocent victims, at any rate. We can all spew out the virtures of our morals and values and claim to be so pure of heart as to be compassionate beyond all… but we’re human. At least I know I am.
E.
Well said elenfair, and a much more eloquent phrasing of my point.
J
So, ellenfair, basically what you’re saying is, “To heck with anyone who gets incarcerated.” Would that we could all wash our hands of it as easily.
I think you may have missed part of what she said, Monty. I’ll emphasize some pertinent parts.
It looks to me like she’s speaking from personal experience here, and definitely did not have an attitude of “to heck with anyone who gets incarcerated”.
Monty,
I think you missed most of my post. Reread it.
Especially this part: "Sexual Assault is not something you wish on anyone - regardless of who they are or what they have done. Prison rape is a bad thing. It should never, EVER happen. "
That is anything BUT saying “To heck with anyone who gets incarcerated.” wouldn’t you agree?
Well, if one’s ambivalent about the victim (which so many people, including you apparently) because of the victim’s past crimes which are absolutely unrelated to the victimizer, then one’s basically saying “to heck with 'em.”
Reading over the thread, I realized that I’m not making my point. I guess what I’m trying to say is:
Relating the news of someone getting brutalized in prison and then following it with “But, you know, he was in prison for {insert crime here}, so [pick one: {I don’t feel bad about it happening to him}/{he kind of deserved it}” minimizes the act of violence perpetrated on that victim. Consider for a moment that minimizing the violence inflicted on that victim minimizes the violence inflicted on all victims, IMHO.
Monty,
I think I now understand what you are getting at.
And I agree with you on one point - we do tend to treat the “innocent” victims differently than victimized perpetrators.
And as I said in my post, this is a horrible thing. It’s bad. Not good. We shouldn’t do that. It’s morally unacceptable.
And yet, if we’re all HONEST with ourselves, we will all realize that we DO IT to some degree - we’re all human. It may be morally wrong. Hell, I’m sure it is. This being said, if you were faced with the following choice, what would YOU honestly do? You have the option of saving the innocent victim of a rape, or her perpetrator (who has just been attacked by a mob who have seen what has happened.) Who will you help first? The innocent victim, or the perpetrator who is now the victim of assault by a whole crowd of people? Neither victims deserved it. BOTH were the victim of a CRIME.
But there you stand. Who are you going to help, if you can only help one?
Your morals, if you can hold to them when faced with an actual situation, would cause you to stop and be unable to react: morally, both victims of the crime, regardless of what they have done PRIOR (and recently, in my example) are equally worthy of your assistance.
Make your pick. Go on, try.
I think we can all sit here and type away at what is morally right, what is morally wrong. But when push comes to shove, we WILL end up making choices. Usually, people will side with the innocent.
This is what I meant.
It’s wrong - morally, both are entitled to the help. I don’t think, though, that you can accuse the rest of the world of being morally deficient if they end up being HONEST ENOUGH to tell you “I wish I felt them both being equal, but I can’t. I wish I could, but I can’t.”
Wrap your brain around that one for a bit.
I, for one, would never say, “But, you know, he was in prison for {insert crime here}, so [pick one: {I don’t feel bad about it happening to him}/{he kind of deserved it}” - re-read my first post. I said the complete OPPOSITE of that! My point simply was that people can sit here and tell us how morally perfect they are, and how compassionate they are - but when push comes to shove, if they look deep down and think and are honest with themselves, they will realize that they, too, will likely not feel the same way about an innocent victim and a perpetrator-victim.
Am I simply NOT making any sense here?
E.
I’m a bit confused, Monty. Are you deliberately misreading what Elenfair is saying?
Prison rape is a bad thing.
No one deserves this kind of thing.
It should never ever happen.
Do they deserve it? No.
Does she feel bad it happened to him? Yes.
I can’t comprehend how you take those statements and translate them into ambivalence about him or minimizing the act of violence.
Read my previous post, Ino.
Or just shut up.
Elenfair: I’ve had a friend who got locked up for a year for a non-violent offense. Actually, he requested the jail sentence instead of the offered probation as he figured that’s the only way he could’ve gotten help with the problem he had which got him in trouble with the law. He’s not a big hulky guy. Just because he’s in prison doesn’t mean he’s a legitimate target for the rapists there. Yes, he committed a crime. No, he doesn’t deserve to be raped. Nobody does. And, yes, I am honest with myself when I say that I feel bad for the victim, any victim, of a violent crime. I gather that you do realize that rape, even prison rape, is a violent crime involving a victimizer and a victim.
I understand your point, Monty (by the way, it’s an L in my name, and not an I) and I agree with you. I’m trying to understand where the miscommunication is.
She’s been agreeing with you from the start that rape is a violent crime involving a victimizer and a victim, and that no one deserves it, not even a rapist. No one. Yet you lumped her in with those who are ambivalent about what happens.
That’s my only point of contention.
I’m not saying ‘but, you know’. Elenfair isn’t saying that, either. No one deserves to be raped. All three of us are saying that.
We’re on your side, here.
No one is disagreeing with you, Monty.
For crying out loud, READ what I WROTE!
No shit, Monty. Here’s what I’d said about that:
Do the math, Monty. No one is disagreeing with you, for jeebus’ sake! I’m glad you’re as morally pure as you claim to be. Good for you. Wonderful. Huzzah. We’re proud of you. I aspire to be like that. I hope someday I can be as morally just as you are.
As for your friend - he’s in there for a non-violent crime. If he were victim of prison rape, I’d consider him just as innocent a victim as any other. We were talking about VIOLENT SEXUAL OFFENDERS being specifically TARGETTED in prisons by other inmates.
You’re grasping for straws trying to prove a point you’ve already made and that we AGREE with you on!
You are making perfect sense!