OH… whar’s the edit button… I meant David, not Brian… Ummm… David can you fix that??
Please???
† Jon †
Phillipians 4:13
(Just imagining Jon at Bible Study explaining this thread, and saying “…and I asked Satan when I really meant David…” and the reactions he’d get) :o
Nav, I think that verse - or atleast one of them - you are thinking of is Romans 8:28
Notice, though, that the second part of that is what is the key…“for those who love Him and are called according to His purpose”…
“We love Him because He first loved us.” 1 John 4:19 †
So Brian, are you saying that God is encouraging you to engage in sex outside of marriage? I didn’t realize he’d lightened up so much.
“I should not take bribes and Minister Bal Bahadur KC should not do so either. But if clerks take a bribe of Rs 50-60 after a hard day’s work, it is not an issue.” ----Krishna Prasad Bhattarai, Current Prime Minister of Nepal
I would like to continue the Rom. 8:28 line of reasoning…
Bad things happen. Terrible atrocities occur daily.
What I cling to in my faith is that in some way shape or form God can take the worst atrocity and make it work for good. That doesn’t mean that the atrocity should have happened in the first place, or that it was right. It doesn’t even mean that God “made” it happen. What it means is that God can take anything and make good come out of it- NOT make the atrocity good BUT to make good come out of it.
Is anybody following me here, or have I lost y’all?
“7But all these things that might have helped me, I call them all nothing, because of Christ. 8Yes, I call them all nothing, because to know Christ Jesus my Lord is much better. It is for his sake that I have given them all up and call them just dirt.”
Phil. 3:6-8
I’m not going to say that people cannot find something good in a tragedy - many times something like a flood or earthquake brings out examples of selfless heroics and other things that make great 10 o’clock news and cause heartwarming levels to rise alarmingly. However - even though I don’t believe in god - I don’t see how someone who does could think that you require god in order to find the silver lining. Invoking his name invariably leads to connotations of ‘holier-than-thou’ or the ‘but-for-the-grace-of-god-there-go-I’ kind of condescending crap that most people find sickening. You following me, or did I lose ya?
There has never been a shortage of folks who will claim understanding and knowledge which they do not have. Christians are much like anyone else, in this reguard, except that they sometimes make claim about something much more serious, such as the intentions, and purposes of God. That is a presumption I heartily encourage any Christian to avoid. I hope I have never given the impression here that I had such an opinion of my own importance.
That said, I think there is an important matter to bring up. The will, and plans of God must, of necessity be based on far greater totality of consideration than our lives, our physical world. The eternal must be greater than the ephemeral. To say that we understand the entire outcome of an earthly tragedy is as unfounded as a claim to know the mind of God. We, ourselves reach beyond this life into the infinite. Our suffering here is only a small part of our being. What comes beyond is the greater.
Though I do not belittle the hurt that my brothers and sisters here in this world have suffered, it is nto the end of all things. All that is lost here is saved, and made new in the next, if only we hold to our faith, and give our love to each other, and to our Lord. The loss of one, is, in every case, an opportunity for another to stand in our Lords place, and give comfort, love, and aid. In that way, in fact good can come out of the ruin of evil.
<P ALIGN=“CENTER”>Tris</P>
There are only two lasting bequests we can hope to give our children. One of these is roots, the other, wings.
– **Hodding Carter **
Aren’t you assuming a great deal about what goes on in private between Brian and his SO? Or have they shared that information with you?
Just wondering…
I want to thank those (most of you, actually) who GOT it.
Yes, the point of this little story - a true story, I might add - was to make a point about how some people feel God does His “miracles” and looks out for them.
I once posted a link which contained a story about a woman who wound up being late or early (I forget which, it’s not important) going home from somewhere. When she got there, she saw on TV that the bridge that she would have been on if she’d left at the usual time, collapsed.
She claimed it was a “miracle from God,” and evidence “that He has a plan for me.” Meanwhile, there were people who WERE on the bridge who God did not, apparently, have a plan for, except maybe for fish food.
So, there are a couple of points to my sarcastic, somewhat witty but still true OP above…
(1) People who are saved from something bad happening to them, claiming it was “God’s work,” failing to realize that this same disaster claimed other lives.
Well, maybe if God really wanted to care, He would have, oh, I dunno, have the bridge NOT collapse?
(2) More broadly, people who are quick to give God credit for all the good that happen in their personal lives and on the world in general, but refuse to indict Him for the bad that happens.
Another real-life example:
My sister is married to a Christian pastor. She prayed all the time, thanking God for her three healthy children.
Well, unfortunately, if was found that one of them had CF. Upon further testing, it was established that two of her three were infected, an the other one was a carrier.
So, I asked her (not cruelly, I assure you - I love my sister) since she was thanking God while she was under the impression her kids were healthy, since they weren’t, how can she not “blame” Him for, if not causing it, at least not caring much to let it happen in spite of her prayers of thanks.
Yer pal,
Satan
Tris:
You reminded me of one of my favorite stories from Jesus the Son of Man, by Kahlil Gibran, the book I’d recommended to Gaudere.
John the Disciple, the hypothetical writer, describes Jesus, himself, and Judas standing by a cliff on a moonless and cloudy night, overlooking the city of Jerusalem.
The view is spectacular, John says, the flickering points of light from torches and lanterns and fires spreading out across the landscape to the black horizon. Judas, taken by the dazzling display, turns to Jesus and gushes, “Oh, Master! Just look what you will inherit when you come into your kingdom!”
Jesus, His expression a blend of pity, pain, and wonder, turns to Judas and gazes deep into his eyes. “Oh, Judas,” He pleads, “Do you truly believe that I have come down through the ages to rule an ant hill for a day?”
I can’t begin to figure out why God does things like, or allows them to happen, to doesn’t interfere, whichever it is.
What I do know is what God requires of me in response, which is compassion, and prayer for the victims, and active help if possible.
Thirdwarning said:
Thank you.
<p align=“center”>Tris</p>
Never express yourself more clearly than you think.
–Neils Bohr
You know something, Satan, you’re obviously being sarcastic, but there could indeed be a germ of truth in what you’re saying.
What about the timing? Let’s say that for whatever reasons are involved, G-d did want this Hornets player to die…but after you missed the basketball game.
Instead, he made it happen in a way that you did not miss the basketball game.
We who believe in G-d believe that he is omniscient and that all details are carefully managed. The fact that a tragedy occured which managed to have a side effect of convenience for you does not necessarily mean it’s ridiculous to think that G-d did not want you inconvenienced in this way. The world could have had a dead basketball player and an out-$55 Satan. Instead, G-d managed it so that only one of the two happened.
Chaim Mattis Keller
cmkeller@compuserve.com
“Sherlock Holmes once said that once you have eliminated the
impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be
the answer. I, however, do not like to eliminate the impossible.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity to it that the merely improbable lacks.”
– Douglas Adams’s Dirk Gently, Holistic Detective
It is interesting to note that philosophers have argued both side of the argument:
God is perfect because he does not interact with mankind, he/it is unchanging, unchanged and his interactions with the universe would indicate some sort of characterization of him/it. IE, God DID this or that.
God is perfect because he does interact with mankind. His will is manifest in creation, therefore his is constantly interacting with man.
Both arguments can produce similar results in a given universe (real or imagined).
Another position, that he sometimes does, and sometimes doesn’t interact seems a little harder to swallow.
I belive in God, but I also believe he gave us free will. I think everything that happens (good and bad) has a purpose, even though we may not know what that purpose is.
I think God is there for all us and interacts with us on some level, and provides strength and guidance. In other words, we create our own realities - the good and the bad. But then, I lean toward the Shirley McLaine school of religion; yes I believe in life after life, and that we’ll keep on learning till we get it right.
[rant]
Wanted to revive this thread in honor of Kurt Warner.
I wonder - had the Titans got that last yard, and won the game in OT, would Mr. Warner have said, “You know what? I BLAME Jesus Christ.”
This will get into some Pit territory, maybe, but it’s the kind of stuff that prompted me to post this a few weeks ago.
I HATE it when athletes right afteer they win give Jesus all the glory, because unless you are prepared to say that Jesus made you fumble, I will say you’re full of shit and a hypocrite.
[/rant]
Yer pal,
Satan
When I was in high school, I was on the academic team. We had a traditional pre-match prayer (in private, that is), and as team captain, it was my job to give it. It usually went something like this:
"Dear Lord, we thank You for allowing us to come here, and for keeping us safe. We also thank You for bringing such an obvious bunch of losers before us today, so that Your glory shall be lifted as we beat them like a rented mule. We know that You favor us over this band of simians, because quite frankly, we rock, and you’re a God who knows quality when He sees it.
"We ask that you give them the strength to pull our foot out of their ass, and comfort them as we steal their girlfriends on the way out the door.
"Oh, and what the hell was up with those Social Studies questions last time? Those were a bitch! You know World History is our weak spot! Keep it American, OK? We’re counting on you. Don’t let us down this time.
“Bless us, and help us to do Your will by showing this hopeless crew just what losers they are, and encouraging them to just give it up and stay home. Oh, and let the Dairy Queen still be open after we get out of here–it was closed last time, and we’re usually pretty hungry. Amen.”
We were undefeated in our league. Must have been God’s will.
Dr. J
Satan , I love it when boxers say they wannna thank their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ for lettin me punch the sense outta my oponents face! Really.
I gotta step in here to give a big HIGH 5 to my fellow Kentuckian, DrJ.
Anybody catch Politically Incorrect Monday night? Apparently, God has a prayer lottery. How I know: the ‘radio talk show’ bilgemeister, in response to Bill Maher’s assertion that his (Maher’s) prayer wasn’t answered, after the bilgemeister insisted the God answers all prayers, said,“You just didn’t use the right prayer, that’s all”.
Right. God runs a Prayer Powerball.
And that audience! If someone had mentioned the Lord one more time (including the kid with the tatooed arms like a Hawaiian shirt), I believe somebody would’ve started The Wave.
If I throw a stick, will you go away?