If the window of vulnerability is 15-20ms, and resting heartbeat has a period of 10…16 msec (100…60 hz), is there possibly a units problem here? Could it be 1.5ms or 15us?
Either way, does it have to be a mechanical strike, or could it be simulated with an appropriate electrical signal?
Link to what I assume is the column in question:
Is the ninja death touch real?
I read it to mean that there is a very small window of vulnerability within the normal, ( roughly one second, 60 bpm) heartbeat cycle, during which you could disrupt the electrical activity of the heart.
There certainly is. If your heart is beating at 100 Hz you’ve got serious problems.
Powers &8^]
There’s no argument among well-trained martial artists about the use of these points. The strike to the carotid sinus is taught to police officers. One solid hit to the carotid sinus point on the neck (Called Ren Ying in Chinese, on the stomach acupuncture meridian) will take down just about anybody, regardless of size or strength.
This point is sometimes used by medical professionals to bring down blood pressure and slow the heart rate of a patient, if their heart rate is dangerously high. In those cases, only gentle massage is used.
The point on the underside of the occiput is also a very dangerous one, but it’s MUCH harder to hit accurately during a fight. You’re usually better off (in dangerous situations) attacking the carotid sinus, the windpipe, or the eyeballs. They are easier to find and much larger targets.
There are other points as well, but the carotid sinus point has the advantage of being the easiest to find, while also much less likely to damage your hand/elbow than more bony targets. There are several points on the face and skull that work well, but you can easily break your hand on those.
Supporting link for carotid sinus massage:
http://modernmedicalguide.com/carotid-sinus-massage/
Prepare for massive amounts of BS and ignorance if you google things like “carotid sinus strike”, “pressure point strike”, etc… The martial arts community has no shortage of credulous fools and ignorami.
However, I have spent many years studying, practicing, and teaching martial arts myself, and have given you, with the above information, a window into a practical fighter’s perspective on pressure point strikes a.k.a. the “death touch” or dim mak.
Are there other types of death touch that involve disrupting energy flow in the body? Maybe, but I’m not about to try proving those here. LOL I don’t want that fight.
Yes, you have a units problem. A 60 bpm heart is 1 hz, not 60 hz. Wait, are you a hummingbird?
Not a hummingbird, just trouble scaling my brain from /ns to /s… blush
Would something like a massager [ dolphin hand held massager reports 3600…7200 RPM ] not have a chance of hitting one of these windows? Google is useless for this - pages and pages of sex toys.
If you had a device hit you at 30mph in the chest 60 times a second, you’d have more problems than your heartbeat’s vulnerable zone.
True but a vulnerable time of 15 to 20 ms is still about a one in sixty chance. There must be a lot more going on than getting hit in the chest during this 15 ms window or we would be hearing stories of kids dying in gym class every day.
Kids in gym class get hit in the chest at 30 mph every day? :dubious:
I would think that in a country as large as the US that every day tens to hundreds of kids get hit by a fast moving ball. There are millions of kids. I know I got hit a few times in my school career.
My guess is that the ball’s line of force would have to have a direct path to the heart, not blocked by a rib or the breastbone. The space between the ribs is pretty small at that point on the torso, so the odds of deflection of force are pretty high.
Also, I would imagine that the degree of muscle tension in the pectoral muscle would play a role as well.
Just guesses.
I agree. I would surmise that most of these cases had either a very powerful hit, some underlying structural abnormality like pectus excavatum, or a very unlucky hit that allowed the force of the blow to reach the heart at the right moment. It’s tough but not impossible, after all, we do attempt to pump the heart manually from the outside with CPR.
Strikes to the chest causing the heart to stop can and do happen. Baseballs and hockey pucks have been the culprits.
But it isn’t like every strike to the chest is going to have this effect. I would think someone could get hit in the chest all day by those rubber “dodgeballs” and never have a problem.
External CPR is a different effect. Way back in the early days there was an attempt at restarting the heart through an external strike to the chest, but that has been abandoned as worthless. CPR consists of compressing and releasing the chest, which squeezes the heart. This does not take nearly the precision of strike to trigger heart defibrillation (fibrillation is the heart fluttering like jello rather than beating with a smooth rhythym - defibrillation is making the heart beat in rhythym again). CPR is intended to keep the blood flowing until defibrillation can be attempted. AED’s are becoming more widespread, making defib more accessible. Otherwise you are waiting for emergency response teams (EMTs, firefighters, etc) who have the equipment.
I agree. My point was just that the rib cage is not an impassible barrier. I should have been clearer.
That’s a hell of a dodge-ball game.
I doubt a mechanical massager would supply sufficient force regardless of its frequency. A baseball (hard or soft) to the chest is a pretty solid thump.
When I was in massage school we were told to be cautious around the carotid sinuses, not so much for fear of stopping the heart, but rather of making blood pressure drop to the point of unconsciousness. As al27052’s link says, “one side at a time.”