as per request. If anyone wants to jump in we’re arguing about the this particular section of the Bible. If a person was sacrificed or not, and wheter or not God approved.
I don’t know about that. It’s a murkey issue. However I won’t aruge the point wheter or not he sacrificed her (wheter it be properly or not) only that he did kill her as a burnt offering and called it a sacrifice to God and that God did not seem to have a problem with it.
True. But biblicaly when ever someone seems to commit such an attrocitiy they get whats comming to them, or God somehow shows his disapproval. What makes this even more profound is that 11:29, the spirit of the lord came upon him. In the very next verses he makes the promise to sacrifice whatever comes out of his house as a burnt offering.
This makes one wonder, does being under the spirit of the Lord allow for a person to commit such an attrocity?
I would say that she is concerned with not being able to live her life to the fullest. In this particular world the pinical of a womans life would be to marry and bare children. Besides, she would have the rest of her life to morn being a virgin if this was the case.
True, you have. But you have yet to explain away the burnt offering connection. Whatever else may be in these verses you have to deal with this:
11:39 After the two months, she returned to her father and he did to her as he had vowed.
And what did he vow?
11:31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the LORD’s, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.
It explicitly states “sacrifice it as a burnt offering” if that verse was not there, I could easily accept your explaination. But as it is now, I have yet to see an argument that “it” is not his daughter.
I’d say I’m backed here by “Judges” by well… depends on who you ask
Moreover, remember that it’s one thing to say “I’m killing you in the name of God” vs. saying “God, help me do this and I’ll kill someone.” Like I said before, Jephtah made a deal with God, and God kept his end of the bargain, and that’s not something you can say about the Crusades.
Plus, God could have handled this in a number of ways:
He could have told Jephtah, in a booming voice, “Don’t be a stupid schmuck!”
He could have arranged for an animal to come through the door first (not one bird falls from the sky without the Lord’s approval, after all, so God clearly has responsibility for Jephtah’s daughter coming through the door.)
He could have done like he did with Abraham, and told Jephtah that the gesture was enough.
God could have simply refused to help him, or could have let Jephtah die in battle as an abject lesson to anyone else who would make a stupid vow.
Instead we have a very clear-cut situation, and I don’t see how you can read it any other way:
Jephtah says he will offer a burnt sacrifice if God helps him.
God helps him, knowing that Jephtah’s daughter will be the sacrifice, and without doing anything to change that fact.
Jephtah states that he must carry out his vow precisely as stated, and his daughter also stresses that the vow must be carried out precisely as stated.
Regardless of whether this was an official sacrifice, we have the fact that some guy clearly sacrificed his daughter- if you’re going to say his daughter wasn’t sacrificed, you might as well say that Judas didn’t really betray Jesus on purpose, and that really it was an accident, and the priests gave him money as a cruel joke. I mean, it says Jephtah must offer his daughter as a burnt offering, and his daughter tells him to do precisely that!
And even if it weren’t an official sacrifice, we have the fact that God kept his end of the bargain, too!
I agree, except in this: We don’t make bargins with God. God makes bargins with us.
I think that one could get away with saying that it was all Jephtah’s mistake, nothing to do with God’s will. but for verse 29 which says the spirit of the lord came upon him.
What I see happening here is biblical evidence that a person who is infused with God’s spirit can still commit horrible mistakes.
Applying this for today we have an argument (all be it a minor and prehaps fractured one) against the so called “rightous actions” of people who believe themselves to be infused with the Spirt of the Lord. Such rightous actions like Gay Bashing, Abortion Clinic Bombings and what not.
In the very least, it seems to be saying that even if we are infused with the spirit of the Lord we are still prone to make the same human mistakes everyone else does.
It seems Christians at least would have even more reason to believe God didn’t disapprove of Jephthah’s sacrifice: Hebrews 11:32 numbers Jephthah (along with such worthies as Gideon, Barak, Samson, David, Samuel, and “the prophets”) as an example of one whose unshakeable faith “wrought righteousness”.
I think that God thought that what Jephthah did was a really dumb thing. You can infer His displeasure by the fact that his stupid act, and the remorse he suffered, is in the Bible. His displeasure can be left unsaid, because anybody reading this passage would say to themselves, “Geez, he was an idiot to do that,” and not do it themselves.
As you know from reading the Bible, even the godly do sin. Everyone, according to the Christian POV, does. Had the authors of the Bible edited out every example of a usually godly person sinning, those who do not believe would have an excuse for not taking the Bible seriously. As the Bible records both the good and the bad, the inquiring reader can take it more seriously–it’s less likely to be a work of propaganda as it reflects how people really are.
scribe, um, what can i say. i am sure that you have a clear cut idea of what you mean, but it’s not coming across too well from you post. for example
I think that God thought that what Jephthah did was a really dumb thing. You can infer His displeasure by the fact that his stupid act, and the remorse he suffered, is in the Bible. His displeasure can be left unsaid, because anybody reading this passage would say to themselves, “Geez, he was an idiot to do that,” and not do it themselves.
the evidence seems to point to the fact that Jephthah was righteous. There is no evidence that God was displeased. You can’t really read your own interpretation into a text, and then offer as proof the fact that the story is part of the text. There are many passages in the bible where i would say to myself “Boy what an idiot.” But the God depicted in those stories seems to go along with it. If the Jay-man were unrighteous, not only would his desired outcome not have happened, but he would be included in the OT as a pariah, and not as a righteous man.
i could just as easily say that Abraham was an idiot for almost sacrificing his firstborn. but that does not mean that Abraham, in the context of the Bible, was on the side of the Lord.
As for editing stories out of the bible, remember that it was not simply written at once. there was a strong oral tradition predating the writing of the OT by a big bit. the stories would be included as long as they conveyed a strong righteous or unworthy message. ths story obviously does not communicate a sinner story. the glory of G_d was realized through this Jephthah fella!
Seems to me the only evidence we have that God did not approve of the offering is…well, we already know God doesn’t approve of human sacrifice so he didn’t approve of this one. Regardless of what this story says.
This is how you get a Bible without and contradictions.
Is there perhaps any story that got “lost” anywhere, to the effect that Jephtha’s wife was so pissed off about this that she and her new boyfriend murdered Jephtha when he came home?
Yeah! And then Jephtha had another son (in secret, that his wife had forgotten about), who was so pissed off at Mom for killing Dad that he killed her next chance he got!
There’s a similar thread in GQ where I responded with the Orthodox Jewish position. However, I will summarize here:
One opinion in the Talmud is that Jepthah’s daughter was indeed sacrificed by Jepthah himself. However, all the commentators make is very clear that his actions were improper.
Other later opinions (Redak, Abarbanel) say that he shut his daughter away (to live like a nun). Even those that hold this view criticize Jepthah for not seeking to have his vow annulled (which is possible under Jewish law under certain circumstances).
All agree, however, that he was under no obligation to sacrifice his daughter. If a person, for example, makes a vow to sacrifice a pig at the Temple, the vow is meaningless, since a pig is not an animal that is eligible for sacrifice. The same thing applies to his daughter.
In any event, he is roundly criticized for rashly making his vow.
