re: the closing of the "Ask the Self-Injurer" thread

[Ensign_Edison]

@Case Sensitive

Charming. Utterly charming. I am a “wacko” who is “fucked up in the head”, and I really do hope you never get to experience what it’s like. Is a modicum of human empathy too much to ask for? All I can say in response is that if that is the attitude you have towards those who do suffer from mental illness, to whatever degree, then your ignorance is precisely why that thread should have stayed open: to attempt to counter, however slightly, such cruel prejudices as you seem to glory in.

If you consider the slightest chance that such prejudices might be countered worthwhile, then is the slight chance that someone contemplating or resisting SI might be tipped over by the “it’s not a big deal” attitude they saw here also significant? What about the chance that more misinformation will be spread? If the thread was guaranteed to do what you say, I might agree with you, but I don’t think it was likely to even begin to change the mind of people who think those of us with mental illnesses are all kooks.

Btw, Cheesesteak, I apologize; you were not the ‘person I was responding to’ I had in mind, and in fact my shouting was entirely due to that person, not you. You just happened to echo a similar point while I was seeing red. I’m sorry about that.
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[Annie-Xmas]

The orginal thread has been reopened by TUBADiva

[Revenant_Threshold]

It’s been reopened.

@TubaDiva

After some discussion with the rest of the staff, we have decided to reopen this thread.

If self-mutilation is a part of your life it would be more appropriate and perhaps more useful to get help rather than be futzing around here but that is your choice.

As always, the management is not responsible for your outcomes. Nothing you read or do here should ever take the place of consultation with qualified processionals.

[The_King_of_Soup]

Case, maybe you’re a little too Sensitive. You may self-identify as a “fucked-up wacko” or not, your choice, but no one has leveled that epithet at you or any other identifiable person. Personal antagonism has been left out of the thread thus far, admirably so in my opinion, and there’s no reason to create any by taking personally what is obviously a general remark. The “modicum of human empathy” you ask for might or might not be within the gift of a public, pseudonymous message board. It is almost certainly better sought in closer and more personal surroundings, as you should know. In any event, a single poster’s opinion about the suitability of the internet to provide help and/or support (they may not be the same thing at all, and may even work against each other) for certain groups, however tactlessly expressed, does not constitute a lack of sympathy for the afflicted, much less an attack on any individual.

catsix, you asked a question, answered it, and then claimed not to understand yourself. You’re right: tattoos, piercings, and for that matter extreme forms of exercise or endurance or religious/ascetic regimens of effort or self-denial can be distinguished on the basis of their goal being some describable form of self-improvement for which the pain or discomfort is a tolerable price, as opposed to activities whose sole purpose is to produce the pain or physical insult, which are themselves the only ends produced (or sought). Certain forms of self-injury or self-denial or self-abnegation are acceptable, and some of them are even laudable. The test, as you yourself said but proclaim not to know, is whether there’s a convincing benefit to anyone, any effect at all worth discussing, other than the protagonist’s experiencing the pain. Given plenty of opportunity in the AtSI thread, nobody mentioned even one.

It’s hard to discuss, because there are infinite thresholds for pleasure and pain that will never be catalogued, and a person’s true motives are always a secret between himself and his God(s). Nonetheless, I think I’m on firm ground when I say that if the means (inflicting pain) are indistinguishable from the goal (inflicting pain), that any analogy to tattoos or piercings or any other cosmetic alteration is badly misplaced.

On preview, I see I’ve been overtaken by events. I’ll leave this as it is, though, because I see nothing in it I don’t still think needs to be said.

[miamouse]

@catsix

I can’t imagine someone shutting down a thread like ‘Ask the tattooed girl’ or ‘Ask the pierced guy’ even if the people in those threads express that they often go and have these body modifications done, so really, what’s the difference?

It seems to me that certain forms of self-injury are acceptable (paid someone else to do it, leaves a lasting reminder) and some are not (did it myself, no decorative purpose), and I can’t figure out why.

Because most people don’t get a piercing or a tattoo as a way to deal with what they feel they can’t handle. And I’m willing to bet it’s kinda rare to have someone accidentally die from a piercing or tattoo.

[Ensign_Edison]

I think it’s pretty much unreal that the Chicago Reader chooses not to endorse threads about past drug experiences, legal software, and “any idea what this tingle on my left shoulder might be caused by”, but a thread about someone who openly declares themselves above needing treatment or diagnosis for their serious condition is A-OK with it.

[Ensign_Edison]

Here, by the way, are some choice samples from Luna’s replies so far. Please note that despite her claim to have stopped, she speaks of cutting in the present tense throughout her posts. Bolding is mine.

I do it because it works. It relieves whatever is hurting me. The feelings that seem so oppressive and daunting are gone.
I look at it like the inner pain I’m feeling gets transferred to the outer, physical pain and when that wound heals, so will my inner wounds.

Whenever I’m depressed, it’s an ever-present ‘solution.’ It’s an easy way out, a simple way to deal with pain rather than facing it like I should. It never goes away, no matter how much time has passed. I can think I’m doing fine, think it will never happen again…that I’ll never be that weak again. But it comes back. It will always be something I have to monitor, to consciously stop myself from doing.

I am 25. I cut mainly on my feet, my ankles. It’s easy access and easy to hide. How often do you look at people’s feet? I’ve cut on my arms before, and I’ve bruised my legs and head and stomach on several occasions.

After, I am damn near thrilled. I’m happy about the pressure being off, and what felt so overwhelming before seems manageable, even trivial. My mind knows it’s temporary, but my body feels elated. I occupy myself with cleaning up the blood, bandaging the wounds, hiding the evidence. I have all my supplies: tape, gauze, band-aids, neosporin, etc. I put all that away.** It gives me something to do, something to focus on for the next few days. **How will I keep it dry? How do I hide it? If someone asks, what do I tell them? When will it heal? Will I scar? How badly?
I think back on it…sometimes I’m unhappy with the amount of blood, or the lack of pain. Sometimes I think I did too much. But I never regret it.

I did it with a piece of glass, because it was handy. I’d tried cutting lighter, but I wasn’t seeing enough blood, so I just sliced as hard as I could. It took a second to well with blood, and I remember wondering why my skin was white inside.
I cut the inside of my throat once so severely that I could hardly eat for a week. It was painful to swallow, to simply breathe hard.

All the reading I’ve done on self-injury says that the majority of cutters are younger and female, but there are exceptions. I know that being a teenager is a rough time, and you have to find ways to cope that work for you.

Harmless?

[Richard_Pearse]

@The King of Soup

Case, maybe you’re a little too Sensitive. You may self-identify as a “fucked-up wacko” or not, your choice, but no one has leveled that epithet at you or any other identifiable person. Personal antagonism has been left out of the thread thus far, admirably so in my opinion, and there’s no reason to create any by taking personally what is obviously a general remark.

If Klaatu’s “fucked in the head” and “wacko” comments weren’t, at the very least, aimed at the OP of the SI thread, then what/who was he talking about?

[saoirse]

@1920s Style "Death Ray"

If Klaatu’s “fucked in the head” and “wacko” comments weren’t, at the very least, aimed at the OP of the SI thread, then what/who was he talking about?

You’re probably right, although the paraphrase changes what Klaatu said, and makes it sound meaner than it was (which was pretty mean). Still, if you’re going to publish the details of your cutting habit, you should expect someone to respond just that way. Cool thing about mental health professionals: they never do that. I would hope that individuals who are posting these stories are prepared to be judged. That thread reminds me that anytime I run into an ex-junkie who wants to tell war stories about the old days, it usually means they’re getting ready to start using again.

[catsix]

The King of Soup said:
The test, as you yourself said but proclaim not to know, is whether there’s a convincing benefit to anyone, any effect at all worth discussing, other than the protagonist’s experiencing the pain.

Then my lack of understanding wasn’t clear.

Why is that the valid test? I don’t see any reason to assume that it should be the determining criteria.

[Guinastasia]

@miamouse

Because most people don’t get a piercing or a tattoo as a way to deal with what they feel they can’t handle. And I’m willing to bet it’s kinda rare to have someone accidentally die from a piercing or tattoo.

Yep-they’re not deliberately trying to feel pain, they just want that tattoo, or the piercing-the pain is merely a side effect. A lot of things we want can cause pain-exercise, for example, may tire you out and make you feel sore, but it’s not the same thing. Likewise, wearing uncomfortable clothes in order to look good. You don’t want the pain, but you’re willing to put up with it to get what you want.

But self-injuries, like cutting, are ALL ABOUT THE SUFFERING. That’s it. You just want to hurt yourself. You aren’t doing it to get a cool looking scar. You’re doing it because you want to feel the pain.

That being said, now, I’m glad the thread was reopened.

[John_Carter_of_Mars]

@Ensign Edison

Harmless?

Certainly harmless, and very informative.

Anybody that would make medical decisions based on a thread posted on a general information message board is beyond salvage anyway. Thus, censorship serves no purpose.

FWIW, I have nine (count 'em, nine) granddaughters from age three to 14. Now, if something of this sort should crop up with one of them, at least I’ll have enough information to know what’s happening.
Thanks to Tuba for re-opening the thread.

[Larry_Borgia]

@catsix

I have a question.

Tattoos, piercings and brandings are a form of self-injury (although typically you pay someone to do it to you) that are done for totally decorative purposes. Although the results (the image on the skin or the jewelry through it) are the reason for the injury, it’s still a deliberately inflicted injury that has to heal and can become infected or scarred. Play piercing is even closer to the concept of self-injury, since there the intention is not to leave the jewelry in the body, but to have it temporarily, take it out, and let the piercing heal closed.

I can’t imagine someone shutting down a thread like ‘Ask the tattooed girl’ or ‘Ask the pierced guy’ even if the people in those threads express that they often go and have these body modifications done, so really, what’s the difference?

It seems to me that certain forms of self-injury are acceptable (paid someone else to do it, leaves a lasting reminder) and some are not (did it myself, no decorative purpose), and I can’t figure out why.

It’s purely subjective. There is no objective test. Compare it to alchohol. There are people who can drink, even drink a lot, and who aren’t alchoholics. Then there are people who can’t drink at all, not even a snifter of port at Christmas. It’s not an exact analogy, but the point is that it depends on motivation and control. The Tatooee gets body art because s/he thinks it looks cool. The social drinker drinks to have a good time. The alchoholic and the cutter drink and self-mutilate for the same reason: to fill the void at the center of their being.

[DiosaBellissima]

@catsix

I have a question.

Well, speaking as someone with two tattoos and 4 sets of piercings, I can assure you that I didn’t do it to inflict pain on myself. I don’t intentionally hurt myself through cutting, burning, etc and so forth-- heck, I really don’t understand the motivation (even when I’m told by practicers who are happy to fight my ignorance).

My first two sets of piercings were done when I was a baby, but I did the other two as a teen because I wanted shiny things hanging from my head. First: it hardly hurt at all- no more than a minor pinch. Second: I would have done it without the pain, if I could have. There was no release from having someone harpoon my face.

As far as the tattoos, those also don’t really hurt. In fact, both times, it felt like nothing more than a cat scratch that lasted for the duration of the session. Again: no release, no pleasure, etc.

Don’t get me wrong, there are probably tattoo and pierce to inflict pain on themselves, but I would theorize that it’s FAR from the majority.

So no, I don’t think that it’s a fair comparison. As someone else said, if a person’s motivation was to get a pretty scar. . . maybe. But that isn’t the motivation at all. It’s an ends and means sort of thing: I suffer the crappy means to get a colorful end on my ankle.

[The_King_of_Soup]

@1920s Style "Death Ray"

If Klaatu’s “fucked in the head” and “wacko” comments weren’t, at the very least, aimed at the OP of the SI thread, then what/who was he talking about?

As always, I’m nervous and distracted whenever Klaatu and Death Rays show up in the same place. For one thing, Gort’s always around, and I just don’t trust that guy.

However, I’m pretty sure Case Sensitive wasn’t the OP of the referenced thread, and I’m fairly sure that Klaatu, however insensitive, didn’t name anyone in his little diatribe. If s/he thinks people with mental illnesses should not invite public questioning and comment on an internet message board, that’s what s/he thinks, and taking his/her remarks as a personal attack strikes me as a needless detour away from a subject that deserves serious discussion. If I construct a dummy that bears some resemblance to you, and hit it in the face, does your nose bleed?

John Carter of Mars, verbiage does not necessarily constitute knowledge. I applaud your thirst for information and your concern for your granddaughters, but why, exactly do you think that the AtSI thread has provided you with harmless, accurate, objective, helpful information on this topic? Would you show the first, say, thirty-two posts to your granddaughters and tell them to read them and believe them, and bow out?

[John_Carter_of_Mars]

@The King of Soup

John Carter of Mars, verbiage does not necessarily constitute knowledge. I applaud your thirst for information and your concern for your granddaughters, but why, exactly do you think that the AtSI thread has provided you with harmless, accurate, objective, helpful information on this topic? Would you show the first, say, thirty-two posts to your granddaughters and tell them to read them and believe them, and bow out?

I’ve learned:
A) This problem is more prevalent than I had imagined, and it’s most common in teenage girls.

B) What to look for as to scars and behavioral patterns.

C) To proceed with serious intent if something looks suspicious.

No, I dont tell them to read and believe anything on a serious subject and then bow out. Who would bail out on them with a subject like this??? We’d read it together, and I’d go through it with them, post by post.
If the question does come up, I’ll certainly find the thread and let them read it, as part of an educational process. Well, the two 14 yr-olds and the 11 year-old anyway. The three year old probably doesn’t need it yet.

[Scissorjack]

@John Carter of Mars

The three year old probably doesn’t need it yet.

Three year olds don’t need help self-injuring: “I wonder what’ll happen if I ride my pedal tractor down that steep concrete path without any brakes.” Whee-splat! Blood, frantic parents, tears and stitches and ice cream ensue. “Cool”.

Thanks, TubaDiva for re-opening the thread - I think you made the right call here.

[Lilairen]

@DiosaBellissima

So no, I don’t think that it’s a fair comparison. As someone else said, if a person’s motivation was to get a pretty scar. . . maybe. But that isn’t the motivation at all. It’s an ends and means sort of thing: I suffer the crappy means to get a colorful end on my ankle.

The impression I have is that the end is frequently the sense of solace, and the pain the means to get there.

[iampunha]

@Guinastasia

But self-injuries, like cutting, are ALL ABOUT THE SUFFERING. That’s it. You just want to hurt yourself. You aren’t doing it to get a cool looking scar. You’re doing it because you want to feel the pain.

If you are asserting that everyone who engages in SI is doing so purely for the pain, you are mistaken.
Those of you who wish to continue discussing this might find success in the re-opened (and I will here add my text voice to those pleased the decision was made to re-open it) thread. I don’t mean to say that you shouldn’t here, merely that I think there are more people who engage in SI who are posting in the IMHO thread than who are posting here. I stopped here only on a whim.

[SurrenderDorothy]

I always thought the “ask me about my mental illness” threads were more to help everyone else than to help the OP.

I mean… okay. let’s take schizophrenia. I don’t know a lot about schizophrenia from a non-factual standpoint. I know what I’ve read in textbooks and such, I know what I’ve seen on Law & Order or movies (which are, of course, fictional and I don’t actually take that information as… information.), and I’ve encountered a few schizophrenics who were either way out of it or unapproachable in some other way.

So I have some knowledge of it, but very little understanding. I have no idea what it feels like. I don’t have any sense of things like… what it’s like to try to function in society as a schizophrenic or how they’re treated by the public or… say… what are hallucinations like? Do you really believe the walls are talking to you? Doesn’t it strike you as strange? Do you question it or does it just seem normal?

If I were to go to a message board for schizophrenics and say, “I’m not schizophrenic and I don’t know much about it, but would you mind if I invaded your space (where I’d guess a lot of you hang out because it’s one of the few places that doesn’t highlight your differences) and treated you like a science fair project for a few minutes?” I wouldn’t imagine that would go too well. They may be polite and answer my questions, but it would still be sort of rude to them.

But if someone were to come on here and start an “ask the schizophrenic” thread, you can bet I’d appreciate it. And not for the facts, either. I’d look at the DSM-IV thing or look it up in the encyclopedia if I wanted the facts. The whole point is that the OP is close to the subject and can offer personal experiences.

As for this one- I realize there’s a difference in that the SI thread is about a behavior rather than an illness, but I don’t think talking about it is equivalent to encouraging it. I also don’t think there’s really much required in the way of “tips” for self-injury. I mean, it’s not hard. I’d hope there are no kids wandering around this message board thinking, “gosh, all the kids at school are cutting and I’d like to, but I can’t quite figure out how to do it. oh! look! a thread! wow… something sharp? I never thought about that! I’ll have to try it!”
And when it comes to encouraging it… I’m sort of split. It’s not a glamorous addiction. There are other ways of coping that have glamorous or otherwise pseudo-positive aspects (drugs make you look badass and celebrities do them and you can do them with friends, alcohol is associated with partying and having a good time, retail therapy leaves you with a bunch of new stuff, etc.) so it’s not one that someone’s likely to read about the first time and get ideas.

but… among teenagers nowadays, I think it’s more accepted in a bad way. It fits into an image and people do it to fit that image. scratched-up arms are like a fashion accessory and people wear their cuts proudly. It’s trendy. So I do think it’s a problem and it’s glamorous enough, apparently, that people have decided it’s cool. But I also think that, awesome as I think you guys are, the majority of teenagers don’t come here looking for ways to be cool. If someone’s going to convince a kid to start cutting, it’ll be peers or someone on TV.