Re: the Pope's rewritten Good Friday prayer and the Rabbi critic

I wonder what I’m missing here.
Pope’s Rewrite of Latin Prayer Draws Criticism From 2 Sides

"The new prayer, published only in Latin on Tuesday in the Vatican newspaper, L’Osservatore Romano, deletes a reference to Jews’ “blindness” and a call that God “may lift the veil from their hearts.”

An unofficial translation of the new prayer reads: “Let us pray for the Jews. May the Lord Our God enlighten their hearts so that they may acknowledge Jesus Christ, the savior of all men.

“Almighty and everlasting God,” it continues, “you who want all men to be saved and to reach the awareness of the truth, graciously grant that, with the fullness of peoples entering into your church, all Israel may be saved.”

Rabbi Rosen, while saying he was pleased that language he found offensive was removed, objected to the new prayer because it specified that Jews should find redemption specifically in Christ. He noted that the standard Mass, issued after the liberalizations of the Second Vatican Council, also contained a prayer for the Jews’ “redemption” but did not specifically invoke Christ, stressing rather God’s original covenant with Jews. "

Now, why would a Rabbi complain that a Christian prayer does not allow Jews redemption, when Judaism, I recall, is all about chosen people, which excludes the Pope?

To my knowledge, no denomination of Judaism is exclusivist concerning salvation.

-FrL-

As I understand it, the Jews were “chosen” to follow special rules, which the non-jews had no need to follow. As long as the non-jews followed a few basic rules like “don’t steal” and “don’t kill”, etc. then they were in good standing with God.

It was the Christians who set up exclusivity as far as being right with God goes, condemning even the virtuous non-christian to the fires of hell.

Even as an atheist, this type of complaint annoys me. It’s as though nobody is allowed to believe any more that their religion is the *correct * religion. No, for the sake of respect for other ways of being, we have to concede that every other religion is a legitimate path to God. It might soothe people’s liberal sensibilities, but IMO, theologically it’s utter bullshit. If Christianity says Christ is the Messiah, and none are saved but through Him; and Judaism says the Messiah hasn’t come yet, but is on His way; then one of them is wrong. Why are we not allowed to say that?

It isn’t just about the Jews - Christians pray that everyone will accept Christ/join the Church/be converted/however you want to phrase it. That’s what we do.

Sorry if it hurts your feelings, but we’re not allowed to stop.

Regards,
Shodan

I’m not sure which complaint you’re referring to here.
But let me just restate what my conundrum is:
Seems like all religions are based on the premise ‘I’m right and all others are wrong’, so why should a proponent of one be critical that the other doesn’t account for him?
It’s like saying “Muslims won’t be happy unless I pray facing Mecca”. Well, duh, that’s their rules. Religions are all about rules.

Again, on the whole, Judaism doesn’t appear to be based on that premise.

Disclaimer: IANAJ, I’ve only gathered this from lectures I have heard and various works I’ve read.

Hurt feelings? Hardly.

Annoyed by the continuing repetition of the message after having said “no thank you” to it? You bet.

The complaint that annoys me is the complaint, “Oh, those Christians are saying that we Jews have the wrong religion. How dare they not be drooling relativists!” I’m not religious, but if you’re going to be religious, then fucking be religious. If you are a Christian, then you should believe that those guys over there who deny the divinity of Christ are taking a big risk, and you should pray for their salvation.
ETA–Sorry, that was stated more annoyed-ly than it needed to be. But the essential argumentative point is the same.

Well, you have to give each generation in turn the opportunity to say “No thank you.” It’s only fair. :smiley:

As the article notes, the prayer has sections specific to the Orthodox, the Protestants, and Pagans and their respective hoped-for conversions. I would expect (have not read it in full) the one about the Protestants speaks in terms of the context that led to them not being part of the Church – a nice word for this might be “divisions,” I doubt they’d use the more loaded word “schism.”

The one relating to Jewish folk uses “blindness” and “veiling” because in the Christian narrative, Christ was walking among them and (at least as to the ones who didn’t become Christians) they failed to recognize (see) his divinity – i.e., they’re missing out (on the Catholic worldview) for historical reasons different from those that are leading other non-Catholics (for various reasons of their own) from being in full communion.

Perhaps so, but [list=A][li]In this instance, the annoyance is easily avoided by not attending the Mass, and [*]some things are more important than avoiding offense.[/list]Suppose I had a family member who was an alcoholic, and it ticked them off that I attended Al-Anon meetings. That doesn’t mean I should stop doing it. [/li]
Or take it even further. Maybe it irritates non-alcoholics to hear about the Twelfth Step. Does that mean AA should become an eleven-step program?

You can certainly make a case for a different approach that might be more successful, but our experience as a Church is that sometimes a direct approach works. So we include that, along with all the other stuff we do as well.

Regards,
Shodan

I think the real issue here is the fraught historical relationship between the Catholic Church and the Jews. We’d rather fly under their radar- decidedly unpleasant things have happened in history when they’ve tried to “save” us.

Nor are many varieties of Hinduism.

You have a talent for understatement. :slight_smile:

As with dinnertime interruptions by exciting, limited-time offers for “fixer-upper” timeshares in the NOLA 4th Ward or shadowy solicitations for the Fraternal Policeman’s Benevolent Butt-Plug Fund, it’s a bit of a shame that “no thanks” isn’t the default position…

If Christianity followed the AA and Al-Anon principles of “attraction rather than promotion” I’d be a lot happier.

But many (most?) denominations do not.

Like I said, we try that too. But as one of our leading proponents once wrote,

Regards,
Shodan

“We had hoped that the prayer in the Latin rite would be the same as that of the universal Catholic liturgy in use since 1970,” said Rabbi David Rosen, the chairman of the International Jewish Committee on Interreligious Consultations. “This new version for the Latin rite appears to be a regression from the path advanced by the declaration of the second Vatican Council. We urge the Catholic Church to deepen its exploration of the full implications of Nostra Aetate’s affirmation of the eternal validity of God’s Divine Covenant with the Jewish People.”
From JTA

The problem is what the religions say about those disagreeing. Judaism and Hinduism teach that those outside the religion don’t fare any worse than those within. Christianity says those outside suffer eternal damnation. This has an impact. What’s the last time a Rabbi or a Buddhist came to your door? The problem, as history has taught, is that it is only a small step from regretting that we will go to hell to deciding that it is in our best interest to be forcibly converted so we won’t.

I’m an atheist, so I think everyone is wrong, but there is a difference.

Indeed, as one of your leading proponents once wrote,

I personally have no problem with you praying for other (and me, unspecifically) to find Christ, since while I think you’re wrong I appreciate that it comes from a good place. I’ll hope in turn that you find the truth, because hey, I do, plus it’s bit less potentially offensive.