I apologize. It was just a joke, and not intended to actually imply that you’re a religious bigot. In fact, for some reason, I thought you yourself were gay, so I didn’t think you’d take it seriously. I am sorry, it was not at all my intent to paint you that way.
You used the following assertion in specific support of your point:
It is absolutely not hijacking to respond to an assertion made in support of the OP’s main argument. If you want to withdraw the statement and replace it with the one you’ve made above (“lost almost all” and “increased acceptance” are not remotely the same claim), then I’ll happily drop it. Otherwise I’d still like an answer: do you think gay teens no longer suffer from any significant amount of stigma?
I rarely do this, but I’d like to add a personal note. More than a decade ago, I was part of organizing the first LGBT group in my high school’s district; within a couple years such groups existed in all the local schools. I’m quite aware of how much progress has been made in a relatively short time in establishing the rights of queer teens. However, I think the suicide rates alone strongly indicate that statements like “almost all the stigma is gone” are vast overestimations of the amount of progress, and especially, as has been pointed out, do not apply to vast, less liberal parts of the country.
Society is more accepting - I went to high school about the same time you did and I see a difference among teens, too - but you’re being overly optimistic. Did you see the kinds of comments Tim Hardaway made after (retired) player John Ameche came out?
Endorsements would be gone - or at best he’d be trading Nike for Bravo or something, which doesn’t compare too well - opposing fans would be ruthless, and the home locker room would be split. The first gay athlete in a U.S. professional team sport (because Navratilova and King shouldn’t be overlooked) is going to have a very hard row to hoe. He wouldn’t necessarily be driven out of the league, but his career would be shortened and damaged by the stress, if nothing else.
In terms of reactions in the locker room, which has been brought up specifically, here are two links re comments made by Tim Hardaway, a former, top (no pun intended) NBA player, just in 2007. These comments were made in reaction to direct questions to him, related to the coming out of John Amaechi, who specifically waited until he retired from pro basketball to do so – and he was not even a top NBA player.
http://www.outsports.com/nba/20062007/0215hardaway.htm * [ ed. note: This link has no explicit images or language, but it is located on an openly gay-oriented site with adverstising. Clarifying NSFW comment in next post. ]*
Notice, even when apologizing, it was a non-apology apology and, just as telling, he said “I shouldn’t have said that I hate gay people or anything like that,” implying he apologized only because he got in trouble and lost work and endorsements, not because it wasn’t a legitimate sentiment.*
Yes, definitely this society has come a long way in terms of getting past homosexual, race and gender bias but it’ll probably never go away completely. But discussing this issue (thanks Justin_Bailey) helps and the visibility of out public figures, especially out top-notch sports figures, will go a long way towards this progress. This can be important because sports are almost the last bastion of male strength, dominance and physical capability and gays succeeding there would say a lot. Will teams lose fans? Not the hardcore ones. But one only has to look at the many incidents of rabid fans calling the other team’s players “faggot, etc.” to realize where the perceptions of gay people and sports stands right now.
Hardaway definitely has a right to his opinion and feelings, but his comments and the like are what continue to poison the public discourse and move towards a peacable society in terms of differences.
Apology accepted. As for your question, no, I don’t think they suffer any “significant” stigma. We have different definitions of significant, but I don’t think they are harassed any more than any other group of teens who are seen as “different.”
As for Tim Hardaway, I wouldn’t chalk his comments up to a “typical” reaction as Hardaway was pretty much a pariah in any locker room he was a part of. I would put more weight behind the Shaq that Diogenes found as Shaq and other locker room leaders will be the ones setting the tone, not an outcast like Hardaway.
I see You’ve been browsing the wrong section at the video store.
I think that it would take a huge player, someone on the level of Tiger Woods or Michael Jordan to make it totally accepted, or having several gay players come out at the same time so as to lessen the scrutiny that any one person would have to suffer under. Other than that, if only one guy has the courage to do it I’m afraid that he’ll get the Superfans treatment in a very negative way.
I tried to do a search for this (minus the “I hate gay people” so I’d narrow it down); I found nothing. I’m not even going to say it wasn’t true (it probably was) but I hope you realize that not getting along teammates and possibly being viewed as a pariah because of that is not the same as giving voice to widespread sentiments that many people, in the NBA and in society in general, feel.
Even if true about Hardaway and his relations with his teammates, I really don’t think you can realistically use this a basis to dismiss Hardaway’s on-the-record and repeated comments as a barometer of how a professional athlete, who happens to be gay, would be accepted and treated. This is especially applicable since you then turn around and make assertions about how accepted the homosexual orientation is based only on your own perceptions.
Again, I commend you for opening this discussion and acknowledge the general progress that has been made in society in general, but I wouldn’t want any of us to be diverted by that willingness from looking more closely at the blinders you might be wearing and the willful mininterpretations you might be dealing in.
This bit of claptrap from generally respected sport writer, Michael Medved, says it all. A quote:
“There is no rational basis for discomfort at playing with athletes of another race since science and experience show that human racial differences remain insignificant. The much better analogy for discomfort at gay teammates involves the widespread (and generally accepted) idea that women and men shouldn’t share locker rooms. Making gay males unwelcome in the intimate circumstances of an NBA team makes just as much sense as making straight males unwelcome in the showers for a women’s team at the WNBA.”
Other basketball players were less than comfortable with what Amaechi said. I remember being disappointing with what LeBron James had to say:
You can see that other players didn’t react as badly, although some were conflicted and not particularly supportive. But I doubt Hardaway was really alone.
We’re not there yet, but attitudes are certainly improving. Whilst they can never improve fast enough it’s unfortunately unrealistic to think that we will go from a situation where any deviation from married with n children heterosexuality is an abomination to the kind of society where such decisions are entirely left to the individual.
I agree wholeheartedly. A gay teammate in the NFL would be shunned in the lockerroom like a used jockstrap. There’s simply too much macho behavior in football for homosexuality to be openly present.
Navratilova’s best years were in the early 80s, and she’d already come out by then. She was an active and successful player, on and off, until about a year ago. I’m sure she had clothing and equipment sponsors, but I can only think of one commercial she did, and it was in the late 90s.
Aren’t all professional athletes gay?!