Well, unless you have a TV tucked under your arm, they aren’t going to double check if you really paid for both bags of M&Ms. I think it’s just there to protect big-ticket items.
And, whenever I go to a warehouse store, they usually do double-check everything, even though I don’t buy anything more expensive than bottled water.
Yep. Bars do it all the time. It’s called a cover charge, or a 2 drink minimum. If customers would actually go to a store that did that is a different question.
I honestly don’t understand what the big deal is. It’s a receipt. They gave it to you when you paid. It’s not your mother’s maiden name, bank card PIN, and wife’s age.
So, we should only (politely, respectfully) stand up for *some *of our rights? Which other rights, in your estimation, aren’t worth preserving?
It’s not about identity theft, it’s about the right to be free from unlawful detainment, unreasonable search and presumption of guilt (this last one on the part of the cashiers, if you believe them that it’s not about theft, which I don’t.)
If the problem is meant to address dishonesty in their cashiers, they shouldn’t be inconveniencing the customers to fix the problem. I don’t know about your WalMart, but it’s not uncommon for the one nearest me to have a line of carts 15 or 20 deep at the exit, full to the brimming of plastic flotsam and cranky children. Is it absolutely going to ruin my day to wait more? Depends on what else is going on that day, how long it took me at check out, and frankly, just what sort of mood I’m in.
Sure, it’s not hard to pull out a receipt. It’s also not hard for stores to respect our legal rights by not asking for it in the first place.
Wait, you’re telling me the point is for the door guy to look at the receipt, look at the price of items on the receipt, and then check them against the price tag to see if they match? That can’t possibly be the point, nobody spends that much time. They wipe the receipt with a highlighter. The most they do is look to see the item in my cart/bag/hand is listed on the receipt.
To me the real issue is store layout. You shouldn’t lay out the store so the exit is accessible without processing through the cashier area. By having large doors off to the sides, and cashier areas offset between, you create the possibility someone could pick something up, bypass the cashiers, and proceed to the exit. I can certainly see that as a fair reason to put someone at the door checking receipts. It’s balancing the needs of inventory control against the needs of floor space, layout, volume of business.
But you non-receipt showers seem to be arguing that one could pick up a box in back of the store, proceed to the front door, and when the clerk asks to see the receipt, you say “I don’t have to show you my receipt, I already bought this item.” How does the door guy know that? If the store layout made the path to the exit flow past the cashiers, then yes you can rely on them and not need a door guard. But in stores like Wal-mart, Best Buy, etc, there is plenty of pathway to the doors that does not go near the cashiers. It would be trivial to take a TV and walk out the door with it.
Where is the unreasonable search? They’re asking you for a receipt, not frisking your colon.
Where is the presumption of guilt? Many smaller stores do exactly as I stated, have the cashier’s counter near the only exit. The theft prevention is controlled by flow of customers and by the cashier. These stores do not have that kind of merchandise control (for whatever reason), so rely on a door guard for that role. So? It’s a confirmation, not an accusation.
You could say, “No.” How could you argue that’s illegal?
I’m positive this is false, in all 50 states. Anybody, business or otherwise, who detains someone without suspicion of a crime is themselves guilty of a felony.
I agree people do get worked up about this issue out of all proportion, but I don’t show receipts. Whenever this topic comes up, I feel certain that I’m on the right side because people arguing the opposite just make shit up like this.
I can’t imagine why this would even be an issue. Yeah, I paid for the stuff. You wanna see my receipt? No problemo, here 'tis. Thank you, have a good day. I can’t imagine why people would blow this up to be a “civil rights” issue. I just don’t walk around all that paranoid.
Walmart? Checking receipts? Not at any of the ones I’ve ever been to. Only ever seen that at Sam’s or Costco type membership dealie places.
I agree. I also don’t think I designed the building, so I have no obligation to help them fix their mistakes.
Yes, someone could do that. Again, not my problem. I didn’t design the store.
To reasonably and legally detain a suspected shoplifter, someone has to witness them shoplifting or otherwise have probable cause to believe they’ve stolen something (like a bulging pair of pants and a shuffling gait that was not observed on entry to the store). If the security guard was back by Electronics and watched someone pick up a TV and bypass the checkout on his way out the door, she could legally and ethically detain the person until the police showed up. That’s right and proper and legal and I endorse it.
Do you think it would be reasonable for me to ask you to produce a receipt for your backpack on the bus? What if I sell those backpacks in my store? Back it up 20 feet. I meet you on the sidewalk at the entrance/exit to WalMart. Do I have a right to ask you for a receipt, or do you think I’d be unreasonable? I think I’d be unreasonable. We do not expect people to prove ownership of items unless there’s a reasonable cause to think they’ve stolen them. Carrying an item isn’t incriminating. Being observed taking it off a shelf and walking past the checkout without stopping is incriminating.
It’s either one of two options: Either they’re presuming I’ve stolen something, or they’re presuming their cashier has stolen something. They have no evidence that either of these things has happened, they’re hoping to gather that evidence by asking me for the receipt.
Oh, there’s another one: they’re trying to get me to incriminate myself in a crime. We don’t allow people to force us to do that in this country, either.
I don’t get worked up about it, but I’m not going to be complicit, either. I’ve never been detained while being polite, although I’ve had a few guards call me a bitch under muttered breath.
This pretty much sums up how I feel about it. All I want to do is shop without being made to feel like a criminal. I make an effort not to do business with stores that have this policy and when they do have someone checking receipts I am VERY polite about refusing. Something along the lines of “no thank you” and I keep walking. I just wanted to double check if it was legal to do so.
It’s not a matter of disrespecting someone doing their job. I just feel that a lot of our rights, even the smallest ones, are being eroded. So without being a complete dick, I am trying to stand up for the ones I can.
Thanks to everyone who has replied.
No, refusing to show your receipt is not ‘probable cause’. A store cannot detain you for refusing to show your receipt. The most they can do is order you off the premises and ban you with threat of trespass charges if you return.
I became a non-receipt shower after the time I was in a hurry and had had to stop at Wal-Mart to pick up an emergency item. This was an older, smaller store, so that the only way out was by passing through the registers. The item I had was too big to bag, but I clearly had my receipt.
There were three or four carts waiting to go out the door and the old man receipt checker had a long (at least a foot or more) receipt in his hands and he was going through every bag in the cart, matching each item up with its description on the receipt. I started to walk by and he said, “I need to see your receipt.”
I replied, “Sorry, I’m in a hurry.” and started to hand my receipt to him. He stated I’d have to wait in line like everyone else. He continued to slowly, methodically, go over each and every item, still on the first cart that had been there when I started out the door initially. He wasn’t anywhere near done.
I started out the door again, deciding he didn’t need to see my receipt that badly. He restated he needed to see my receipt. I told him he in fact did not. He then used the cart he was itemizing to block the doors so nobody could leave.
That’s when I became less than my normal sunny self and pushed the cart out of my way and started out. He started yelling he needed to see my receipt and I stated, “I’ll bring it back later or you can go ask Register 9 to print you a copy. I’m leaving.” And I did. It was at that moment I decided I would never show another receipt again. I’ve also noticed that the Wal-Marts around here have stopped doing receipt checks.
I’m all for anything that will deter theft and therefore result in lower consumer prices by me: the guy who isn’t a thief nor a dick-head. I’m not certain now that most of you are excluded from these two categories. You are a seriously paranoid bunch. Get over yourselves.
Does “presumption of guilt” have a specific legal meaning? I wouldn’t have thought it would apply to a situation where they’re checking everybody. After all, if they check everyone’s ticket before letting them into a theater, they’re not presuming you’re trying to sneak in without paying!
What would happen if, as happened in your story or the one linked to, when you get blocked physically from leaving you simply ask, “Are you preventing me from leaving?” and if they continue, call the local police (not 911) on your cell phone and in front of everyone tell them that you need the police because you are being illegally detained.
The way I handle it is when they ask to see my reciet I say sure, hold out the reciet and keep on walking. If the question me I just say walk with me while you look at my reciet.
If they want to detain me so be it they can put me under a citizen’s arrest or I keep walking.
Several years ago this quesstion was on one of the TV news “good question” segment. And the answer was other than membership stores you do not have to show your reciet.
I haven’t really run across this in the city. Granted, there aren’t any WalMart’s in Chicago, at least not near me. I shop at any of three Targets, haven’t seen any receipt checkers. The Best Buy I shop at has a guy by the doors, but he’s never asked me for a receipt. Once when I bought a vacuum, the door guy offered to stick a nifty handle on the box for me and made it much easier to carry.
I also NEVER shop on weekends, so maybe if they just do that on busy weekend days I’ve just never been there to witness it. That’s a whole 'nother thread, though! (Why do so many people shop on Saturdays instead of after work?)
The layout should be such that there is NO merchandise available after checkout. In just about every big box store I’ve been in lately, there’s the main floor, crammed full of merchandise. Then there’s the checkout lines, with lots of impulse buys (magazines, lip balm, candy). Then there’s the area between the cash registers and the exits, which is ALSO full of impulse buys (newspapers, more candy, firewood). If they’d move the merchandise onto the sales floor and not make customers go back to the end of the line if they want a newspaper, I imagine they’d get more sales, and have less shrinkage.
I NEVER stop.
I just scoff and keep walking. I don’t ignore them, I SCOFF.
Once, an elderly man tried to stop to me, and I just said, “Leave me alone!”.
He left me alone.
I’m sorry, but I consider it a breech of my rights by Wal*Mart, and, uh, NO.
IANAL…
If they can ask you for proof because you have a big bulky lump in your coat, why can’t they request proof of purchase as you leave? After all, reasonably, a customer may have an item they just purchased, but the store has a shelf full of the same item that are thier property. The difference is that a customer also has a receipt as proof of purchase (and ownership).
The problem is not “is it legal?” Of course it is! You have free speech in the land of the free. The real question is, do you HAVE to show proof of purchase to leave the store with your item? Answer, no. You paid for it, you own it, you can now go anywhere the public is allowed to go. You can even wander back into the store first.
So they ask you to show a receipt and you refuse… dick that you may be, or reasonable but excessively provoked customer, depending on the lineup. The question is, what do they do then?
The answer is - lawyers have made millions on the definition of “reasonable”. If they have reasonable grounds to believe you are committing a crime, they may detain you until the police arrive. Then, your lawyers and theirs and the DA discuss the circumstances and the meaning of the word “reasonable”.
Here are some of the arguments that may be tossed around:
If you are coming from the area of the cash registers, with the item in plain sight, isn’t it reasonable that you paid for it? Especially if the cash register area is laid out so it’s hard to get by with large or obvious merchandise without being questioned?
If it is busy and crowded so the checker would not observe which way you came from, it’s reasonable for him to ask for proof to double check? Busy and crowded is the best time to try and pull of heists, and brazenly walking out the door with something is a time-honoured technique.
If the “customer” is rude, is it reasonable to give him special once-over treatment? Probably not. If he refuses to show a receipt? What other suspicions do you have? Is it merchandise that is often targeted, or valuable? “Unreasonable” behaviour is by definition “not reasonable” in the eyes of the other person.
If you tell the person “leave that merchandise behind or produce a receipt” (aka proof of ownership) and they refuse, does that seem like reasonable behaviour?
If the customer’s rudeness is reaction to unreasonable delays in exiting the store, is it reasonable? Probably.
If they call the police and you don’t even try to prove you have a receipt, is that unreasonable? Depends on the judge. Don’t forget, when you sue over damages, you have to prove you met your “duty to mitigate” - take reasonable (That word again) steps to lessen the damages. If you get arrested and spend a night in jail when all you had to do is reach into your pocket, then the judge likely won’t put all the blame on the store.
You will likely get away without charges of theft regardless. If you have a receipt, case closed. They pretty much have to have you cold taking the merchandise, bypassing the tills, and trying to leave. Even if you pocketed a receipt and ran back in to get a second TV, unless it’s on security video or the serial number is listed, it’s hard to prove you did so beyond a reasonable doubt.
Mind you, we are talking lawsuit against the store over wrongful arrest here. Once the police arrive and ask for proof, if you fail to provide it, then they can only assume there is a reason why you are trying to leave a store with merchandise and no proof of payment. I wonder if it is obstruction of justice to fail to provide police with a receipt in those circumstances. You would definitely be wasting their time.
As for Bozo blocking the door with the cart to enforce checking, that is proof of what sort of person you get when you pay minimum wage and don’t make clear the rules. A lawsuit waiting to happen.
And one final word of caution. When pushing your way past, or pushing carts out of the way, be very very careful NOT to do anything - real or accidental - that would be viewed as assault. That trumps any argument over receipts, theft, or anything… except illegal detainment. And if you use excessive (unreasonable) force to get out of illegal detainment, you can still be charged.
I posited that merchants could not set the terms by which an invitee would be allowed to leave the premises. Came the reply:
That’s a term by which you’re allowed to remain. If you decline to pay the cover, the merchant, um, asks you to leave. He doesn’t detain you on suspicion of shoplifting.