Red Light Traffic Cameras

The BBQ Pit
1

As a "Monty Python"er would say: Fair cop.

But as Herman Munster would say: Darnit!! Darnit!! Darnit!! Darnit!! Darnit!! Darnit!! Darnit!! Darnit!!

I got back from holiday vacation, and found a auto-ticket from Arlington County, VA, showing me running a red light in Rosslyn (where West Wing’s season finale was filmed). Gone are the days of “Cop didn’t see it, I didn’t do it.”

The real jab about this ticket: I was just returning to work from the county clerk’s office paying a parking ticket.

Darnit!! Darnit!! Darnit!! Darnit!! Darnit!! Darnit!! Darnit!! Darnit!! Darnit!! Darnit!! Darnit!! Darnit!!

2

I got you beat, pal.

I received a ticket last year for allegedly taking a red light. The thing is, I didn’t.

I approached an intersection at night. My light was green. When I was about 20 meters away from the light, it shifted to orange. I decided that I could make the stop, even though it rained somewhat and I was doing 70 km/h.

The last bit of the deceleration, my tyres blocked briefly, causing me to slide ONE FUCKING METER (three feet!) past the solid line.

FLASH

Three weeks later, the NLG 90 (USD 35) ticket arrived. I tried to fight the decision, since it was totally clear from the picture the car had come to a full standstill.

Only to have the appeal denied, and the ticket price doubled.

Fuckers.

3

I’ve heard stories of successful and unsuccessful fights to dismiss these kinds of tickets.

I remember coming downhill on this street that turns to the right. There are city office buildings lining the street, so the view of the signal isn’t clear until you’re close to it. Also, the pavement is rippled from years of traffic coming to quick stops there.

Admitedly, I was going about 5 mph faster than I should have. So when I saw the yellow, I thought I couldn’t come to a safe stop, so I punched it. Just as I hit the stop line, it turned red. The second picture shows me halfway through the intersection. The third, of course, is a fairly clear picture of my license plate.

IIRC, it won’t appear as a moving violation since it was autogenerated. But still, $50…

Once again: darnit!! darnit!! darnit!! darnit!! darnit!! darnit!! darnit!! darnit!! darnit!! darnit!! darnit!! darnit!!

4

Actually, depending on where you live, it may very well be a moving violation.

Ok, I’m ready for my flaming for being a minion of “the man”- I used to work for one of the companies that maintains red light cameras and photo radar. Now, before you get too upset, let’s clear up some misconceptions about this stuff.

Myth #1- photo radar is a speed trap.

False. A speed trap is where one or a series of posted speed limit signs abruptly drop the speed limit on a stretch of road, then a partially or totally concealed police vehicle roars out and you’re pinched for speeding, usually about 10 feet past said sign. At least in Riverside & San Diego, CA, photo radar cameras were mounted in the open back of a large, marked police vehicle, usually a Jeep Cherokee or Chevy Blazer, with lights & everything (very hard to miss). It usually operated in a problem area, like school zones while children were present, or stretches of road where numerous accidents had occurred. Each city decided on locations.

Myth #2- photo radar is unmanned.

False. Again, I am citing our practices only, YMMV. Each vehicle was manned by staff of the operating police department, either officers or other sworn personnel. This was necessary for calibration of the radar equipment and reloading of film. Now, redlight cameras are unmanned, as they are usually atop a light pole, but again, don’t think it will be easy to fight the ticket- do some research before you show up in court with a “this is bogus” argument.

Myth #3- you can’t prove I was driving.

Depends on the picture. However, as you are legally responsible for what goes on in a vehicle you own, it’s still your ticket, unless you can prove you didn’t own the vehicle at the time of the violation, or you can get your buddy to 'fess up and take the pain. We never cited people on questionable photos. It had to be crystal clear of both driver and plate, otherwise the courts would get pissed in a hurry with all of the challenges. FYI, ours didn’t get beaten much. As Coldie’s post pointed out, “ok, I was in the intersection but I have a good story” doesn’t always work with a judge, unfortunately. The argument, of course, is “would a REAL cop have ticketed me?”- depends on his mood, I guess.

Most people hate photo radar because they got caught fucking up. I mean, I myself am going to spend all day (literally) Saturday in traffic school for a speeding ticket. Me, a former law enforcement liaison, wife of a former prosecutor. But hey, I got caught, it’s not their fault for catching me!

It can actually be beneficial, in that it’s not just your word against the cops. Of course, the leverage is toward the cop’s argument, but that’s the goal of law enforcement.

Sorry if you got hosed by it, but it’s not the spawn of Satan that people think it is. I will post later if I’ve forgotten something important (which I’m sure many of you will cheerfully point out for me!).

5

Were you on Wilson turning down toward the Key Bridge? My office is right there across from the Newseum. During the winter when the 'cycle is under wraps I walk right past that intersection and when waiting to cross, watch the flash flash of the automatic camera. I can see the whole sequence go through, and I’d say about half the time I am saying “fucking bastard!” and the other half “oh, poor bastard!” depending on how blatantly red the light was when the driver when through. The camera itself just sits there passively, generating revenue for the city.

I hate to say it but in some cases the cameras are a good idea, especially in parts of the metro area that are prone to gridlock. Nothing worse than being stuck in traffic because some chucklehead made a left turn into your lane, and is now stuck there, blocking you, while your light is green. I’ve actually pulled up along side people, pounded on their window to get their attention, and politely :rolleyes: asked them to move along. Every time they are sitting in their car doing their best not to notice the huge line of oncoming cars (this is typically on Constitution). The look on their faces is priceless when they are shocked into acknowledging that they’ve caused a problem is priceless. Fuckers. Anyway, I am not saying that these cameras ARE in the right places, nor that they are effective without great signage “Warning - THIS PARTICULAR ITNERSECTION is camera-monitored - watch your ass!” but the idea of cutting down on gridlock is a nice one. Without that, the cameras are good way to suck revenue from drivers. Sorry 'bout the ticket.

6

AWB, I’m with you buddy. I’m from Columbia, Maryland where we also have them. I’m anxiously awaiting my ticket, for I’m sure that a nice glossy was taken of me several days ago. I honestly think that these can cause accidents because they make drivers so paranoid as to lock up their brakes when they see yellow. I don’t care how fast you’re going, if you skreetch to a halt, eventually you’re going to get ass-ended. I hate it when I’m approaching a light in my stick shift, and the light changes to yellow and for a brief second I brake only to realize that it’s too late and I might as well gun it, but being in a higher gear I sputter through the intersection as I smile for the camera. This is how I got nailed. I wonder if they’d prosecute for vulgarity if I flipped the camera the bird next time this happens?

7

I know here in Florida, because of the laws on where your license may be placed, a lot of people put their license plates in their rear windows so that the cameras won’t be able to see them. I have no idea if the Florida legislature plans on changing the law on license plate placement anytime soon.

8

how long does it take to get the ticket? we think we triggered one while in DC over the holidays in a rental car - they have to take pic of both the front and back, right? (we don’t have them in Lansing MI, so we’re unclear on the concept). He (not me) was driving, went through an interesection where he didn’t see the traffic light til he was under it and it was red, we saw some flashes, figured it’s one of those camera deals.

So, they’ll send it on to the rental co, right? who then will forward it on to us. will our future rental rates go up???

9

wring- the cameras only take a photo of the front of the car, so at least in CA, people just don’t mount their front plate! However, since this is also against the law, the next time you get pulled over it’s another vio on the ticket, though I think it’s only a “fix-it.”

The rental car place may get the ticket and forward it to you, or the company processing the citations may not bother. When we did it, we had read-only access to CA DMV records. We would look up the plate to get the registered owner. Law enforcement personnel and others can have their info blocked for security reasons, so you can’t send them a citation. However, you can send it to their department with the picture, so their commanding officer can do whatever he/she wants to the officer. It is unclear whether a rental car company will be sent the citation, but if they are, they will just fill out the part of the form that says “rental car, here’s who rented it” and the cit will then be forwarded to you. Having seen the staff of rental agencies, they simply may not bother doing it, because that would be work. If a month or so goes by, assume you are clear, but I suppose something could appear later. Don’t sweat it until it comes.

The cameras don’t cause accidents, that’s a cheap cop-out- supposedly drivers should ALWAYS be worried about running a light, right? Be warned- don’t ever use that argument with a judge, it drives them nuts.

And if you actually get a chance to flip off a camera, feel free to do so. The judge might not laugh, but we had a gallery in our office of the best vulgar shots. The local cops used to speed past the unit and give us the finger, hold up signs, etc. It was funny as hell, and they usually requested a copy if it was a good clear picture!

10

DISCLAIMER
I heard these to be true; they stand to reason; I didn’t confirm them.

General info:
Red light cameral are triggered by motion through the intersection after the light has turned red. They usually take 3 pictures at different times. Because the driver is not identified, it is difficult to assign moving violations. Usually the owner of the car is fined (no points) and he/she has to beat the $ out of the person driving the car.

Hearsay:
The cameras have a threshhold of 19 mph (that’s something like 359.32 litres/hectare). This means that anything going through the intersection at, say, 15 mph will not get photographed, regardless of the color of the light.

More hearsay:
In America the accused has a constitutional right to be confronted by his or her accuser. (or at least have tea) This is why you get out of a ticket in court if the Officer does not show. Take your photo ticket to court and demand to confront your accusor for questioning. Insist that the accusor is NOT the drone who puts the pictures in the envelope and sends them to you, but the actual camera! Since they can’t do this, they can not prosecute.

Further, you could constantly delay court hearings by requesting every single record kept on the camera (i.e., manufacturing date, calibration date, calibration values, etc.) until you are “forgotten”.

11

Thanks. I don’t think there was a plate in the front (they’re not required in MI). Hmmm We may be in the clear! :smiley:

We didn’t need an additional 75 or whatever (my parking ticket from there several years ago was either 50 or 75 ) since we’re just begining the coldest damned winter on record (down to -18 air temp the other night). brrrrrrrr

12

No.

First, this line of reasoning doesn’t make sense. DO you believe that if a security videotape captures you committing murder, you can blithely point out that your accuser is the camera, and be released?

Of course not. You have a Constitutional right to confront witnesses against you. But there are exceptions to this right, and those exceptions allow the photos to be used as evidence. If you would like detail about these rules of evidence, please let me know.

As to the idea that you could delay hearings in the manner described – again, no.

  • Rick
13

I’ve noticed a dinstinct increase in the number of people who put covers on their rear liscence plates. Some are so dark and /or cloudy you can barely see the plate number if you’re standing right next to it.

Are people doing this to avoid these type tickets? Do they work? Are any states taking action against them?

14

I, for one, wish they’d put MORE of these @!#$@#! things here in Boulder, CO. I think they have some - at least, when you enter town, there’s a big billboard declaring that the city uses 'em - but so far it hasn’t done any good.

Boulder, for those of you who don’t know, is a big town that wants to be a small town. The city higher-ups are continually doing things like putting crosswalks in the middle of major highways, and deciding that they don’t need to spend money on new roads or traffic control because everybody really should be riding their bikes everywhere. The lack of traffic control has made it so that running red lights is an everyday thing. I’ve seen as many as six cars run a red light at a time!

The basic mode is something like this: String of cars is waiting to turn left. Another string of cars is coming the other way, keeping the left-turners from turning. The first few left-turners have edged out to the middle of the intersection, so that they can make their left when the light turns yellow. Light turns yellow. People going the other way keep going. Light turns red. 2-3 cars going the other way run the light. At this point, there’s 2 left turners in the middle of the intersection, so they make their left turn 20-30 seconds AFTER the light has turned red, since they have to wait for the people running the red light to stop doing it. After the 2 people in the middle of the intersection go, 1-2 left-turners who were waiting in line decide “What the hell? I’ll go, too!”

Meanwhile, all the people who HAVE the green light are waiting… and waiting… and waiting. Traffic in Boulder is horrendous, and would speed up considerably if everyone would just quit running the red lights. I’m all for photo radar.

15

Many places sell covers for plates that they say will somehow deflect or defeat the radar and/or camera. Nope, sorry, won’t work. Besides, with film, you can make the image lighter if it’s too dark to read on the first glance.

On the “hearsay” stuff- the threshold at which the camera takes a picture can be set or reset at any time. It is motion that triggers the shot, not the particular speed of a moving object. This goes for red light cameras. For photo radar, the threshold can be set for any mph/kph, so each police dept can decide where they will ticket- 1 mph over the set limit, 10 mph, etc.

Also, if it’s photo radar, there is a policeman with a log book sitting next to the camera (at least in most states). He logs each vio at the same time the camera does (by time, car type, color, etc- sometimes even the speed off the gun), so you have both the physical record and the camera record. Needless to say, your accuser (the cop) merely has help (the camera).

Canada can be a whole other story! When we had a contract with the OPP, they were very sneaky with where they put their radar. Apparently, they were allowed by law to hide it or camoflauge it anywhere they wanted! In tractors by the side of the road, or whatever. Sneaky bastards.

People are always trying to find funky new ways that redlight cameras and photo radar are not fair, illegal, or unconstitutional, but so far nothing has worked. But keep trying, because that’s how we make sure that things are fair.

16

Hey, another Lansingite!

I for one am thankful for the profound lack of law enforcement on Lansing’s city streets (back me up wring): What we do have are these stupid signs that have a speed gun connected to them, and they say “the posted speed limit is 25mph. You are going XXX.” Great fun these things, makes for a quick game of floor-it.

Yet another hijack:

Wring, keep the speed down in East Lansing, the ticket is $105 for just 5 over. I know, I got one.

17

Lansingites, be warned- many cities use those stupid signs to decide where they want to put cops with radar!

18

Yes, I’ve been around long enough to know to go verrrrry sloooowly in EL, but thanks for the heads up on costs (my son, if I let him live, will be driving soon). We’ll have to keep you in mind for the next Lansing dopefest!

19

One reason people buy these is to protect their plates from theft. In some places (Philadelphia is one), there have also been problems with people cutting off the registration sticker from the corner of the plate.

20

small hijack-

JeffB- you can protect yourself from this easily. First, before sticking the current sticker on, remove all of the old ones. Then, after affixing the new sticker, take a razor blade and make two diagonal cuts in the shape of an “X” over the entire surface of the sticker. Now if someone tries to steal it, they will only get 1/4 of it. It is obvious that this will happen before they steal it, so you shouldn’t be left with only 3/4. That’s what we do in CA.

/hijack