A student of mine, as part of a larger attempt to convince me that the universe is less than six thousand years old, informed me that the site of the original Red Sea parting has been discovered. Apparently there are a number of gold rimmed chariot wheels at the bottom of the sea there. I had never heard this, and I was wondering if anyone here can point me to a source.
He also, incidentally, informed me that only 51% of the scientific community believes in evolution. Debunk this, anyone?
-Ed
Well Ed, I would guess that your student has heard about the late Ron Wyatt. Needless to say, Mr. Wyatt tends to see things that no one else can see - including other Christian archeologists. I don’t feel the need to debunk him 'cause that’s already been done. Check here:
http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/w07.html
As for the statistic he quoted I’ve been unable to find any stats that say exactly what percent of the scientific community believes evolution, but I’d bet big money that it’s more than 51%.
I think what your friend is referring to is the Gallup Poll from 1997 that’s referenced here:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_publi.htm
It shows that among “scientists”, 5% are creationist, 40% believe in theistic evolution (G-d exists and watched over evolution), and 55% believe in naturalistic evolution (evolution happened, but G-d didn’t have anything to do with it). So, if that’s what your friend is referring to, he or she is incorrect. 95% of “scientists” believe in evolution.
The site also makes the point that “scientist” is a pretty broad term, and that some people who might identify themselves as scientists would not have studied biology, and wouldn’t be any more qualified than the general public.
Ed, ask your student if they’ve found any chariot wheels in the sea of reeds, or if they’ve figured out where the sea of reeds is.
Hmmm. How would I get my chariots across the Red Sea if God didn’t perform some sort of miracle? I guess I’d just have to ride all the way around…
**aubries wrote:
A student of mine, as part of a larger attempt to convince me that the universe is less than six thousand years old, informed me that the site of the original Red Sea parting has been discovered. Apparently there are a number of gold rimmed chariot wheels at the bottom of the sea there.**
I tend to agree with the others here, it’s up to the person making the assertion to provide the evidence to back it up. Can this student show the evidence for this? The journal article where it appeared? The name of the professor who dug up the evidence? Anything tangible other than “they found gold-rimmed wheels in the Red Sea”??
Also, how does “gold-rimmed chariot wheels” means “The Exodus” is true? Was a half-destroyed chariot nearby that had the hierogylphs on it “Property of Ramses II”?? What’s the context for this evidence?
Last year, I fished an old fender out of a pond.
Maybe that means God parted the pond so some guy could drive through the middle. Maybe he lost faith halfway through, or his car broke down and he had to walk.
I mean how else could car parts possibly get to the bottom of a pond?
Must be God.
This has been bouncing around in the back of my mind…
Assuming our student friend is right, why would the Egyptians put gold on the rims of their chariot wheels? Gold would be a totally unsuitable metal for rimming a wheel. It’s much too soft and malleable for such a purpose, even refined and alloyed, it’s still a soft metal, compared with other things, like iron or steel or bronze. I could see using gold as decoration on the spokes, but on the rims? It makes no sense!
Granted, I’m not an Egyptologist nor am I metalurgist, but I’d like to hear a good reason for gold linings on chariot wheels.
While that is a good question, I think you may be missing the point.
He also explained to me that since reptiles never stop growing their entire lives, that dinosaurs must have been ordinary lizards that lived for hundreds of years like the early humans did.
Furthermore, the universe couldn’t possibly be billions of years old, because by now the tremendous centrifugal force generated by the spin of the Milky Way galaxy would have long since dispersed the dust that makes up the spiral arms.
You see where I’m going with this. The tensile strength of gold is the least of the problems here. It may be that he was talking about gold on some other part of the wheels. I would not characterize his arguments by their attention to detail.
Honestly, If someone tells me that the world is less than 6,000 years old because it says so in the Bible, I accept that as a valid (although inconsistent with my own beliefs and observations) argument. The thing that kills me is when people try to combat real science with fake science and bad mathematics. If you want to take a theological position, back it up with theology. For guys like Wyatt to back it up with “science” is just embarrassing. The bottom line is that in order to believe Creationism or its cousin theory about the age of the universe, you have to flush just about every piece of knowledge science has ever given us down the toilet. When I tried to explain to him that the galaxy is spinning many millions of times more slowly than a record on a turntable, he smirked like he thought I was grasping at straws.
For what it’s worth, he does think the Apollo missions were real.
-Ed
I have a little tiny T-Rex in a cage at home, you can get them down at PetSmart…
He may have been smirking for another reason. I am not an astronomer, but I believe the orbital velocity of our sun is estimated to be around 230 km/sec, significantly faster than a record on a turntable. I think the actual velocity depends on your reference frame, but the real reason the sun and the dust clouds do not disperse is due to the effects of gravity, though admittedly scientists are unsure where some of the gravity originates, hence the term dark matter. You might ask an actual astronomer like Chronos for a more thorough explanation.
Still, it is a silly argument. If gravity is not enough to counteract the orbital speed now, it makes no difference if the galaxy is 6,000 or 10 billion years old, we would see it flying apart now, and of course we do not. Maybe he thinks Jesus is holding it all together. :rolleyes:
Orbital, shmorbital. At that rate it will take the sun 220 million years to make a single revolution. My turntable can pull off 33 of those every minute.
I see what you mean now. I simply misunderstood what you were trying to say.
Regardless, your student has a serious problem with reality. I suppose he also thinks the light we see from stars millions of light years away was created in transit, and the earth created with ancient fossils in place. Too bad his brain wasn’t created with critical thinking skills in place.
I’m suddenly confronted with a thought which has probably graced this board a million times.
God is supposed to be accepted on faith alone. Sometimes, he’ll reinforce that faith with an occasional guest appearance, but not often. The entire body of scientific knowledge seems to indicate that the Universe is a half-dozen orders of magnitude or more older than six thousand years. We’re also pretty familiar with Yahweh’s, um, “strange and mysterious” ways (hold your tounge there, boy).
So why don’t Creationists simply accept all the evidence in favor of an ancient universe as a test of faith? By attempting to overturn the accepted conventions of science, aren’t Creationists actually attempting to poke holes in God’s Plan?
Well, aubries, don’t keep us in suspense. How did this student react when presented with the facts?
For the record, there is no evidence in Egyptian literature for the Exodus. The best we have is some letters from a regional governor suggesting that some of his slaves are rebelling. However, if more than a million slaves had escaped from Egypt and much of the Egyptian army destroyed in the process, there would have been historical record.
**aubries wrote:
While that is a good question, I think you may be missing the point.**
The point I was trying to make is that if one found gold-rimmed chariot wheels under water, I’d say the evidence is planted.
My reasoning; gold is one metal that doesn’t corrode easily, therefore it lasts a while, even under water. Iron and other ferrous-based metals, the more logical choice for a rim on a chariot wheel, would have long since corroded away.
If one found gold rimmed chariots wheels (acutally, I would think you’d find gold hoops, the wood or other organic material of the wheel would have long since rotted away) and gold is an illogical choice for a practical chariot wheel, I’d say the evidence is planted.
33 1/3, actually.
I’m old enough to remember when they rotated at 78 rpm. My mom still has some of the records.
Questions for the believers: If a million slaves escaped Egypt overnight, the Egyptian economy would have taken a serious blow, perhaps a fatal one. How did they survive? If it lost most of its army, why didn’t any neighboring country try to invade?
Freyr, I think what you would find is flat circles or even disks, not unlike giant hub-caps. If I remember rightly, chariot wheels were solid-bodied or armored, as spokes were vulnerable to attack. That leaves a lot of room for decoration, and the gold would have been used as such, not as a surface contact lining.
Such a find doesn’t have to be a plant at all. As Scylla and I both obliquely pointed out, there are alternative–and far more believable–explanations for how chariot wheels might be found in the Red Sea. Both involve a fancy invention that’s been around a long time: boats.
So say you find a bunch of chariot wheels in a line crossing more or less west-east at the bottom of the Red Sea, with no other artifacts around. The best of all possible finds for a Creationist, right?
Wrong. Imagine trying to cross an un-miraculously parted Red Sea with chariots. You’re either going to need a large cargo craft or a towed barge. Now think about what happens when a towed barge carrying chariots gets caught in a storm. The tie-downs are stressed, the load shifts, chariots start falling off or are intentionally pushed overboard, one at a time, leaving a line of sunken chariots exactly as if they had been following one another in line. Same thing happens with a leaking cargo boat desperately trying to lighten its load.
Say you find a bunch of chariot wheel artifacts all bunched together. Oh, my! It’s the sinful pursuers of the Jews huddled together in fear as they face the wrath of God!
Bullshit. It’s a sunken cargo barge, made from non-metal, biodegradeable parts, now not easy to detect. Alternatively, it could be the remnants of a ritual, perhaps an offering of captured or destroyed chariots by the victor to a sea-god, not unlike Scylla’s dump site (take another look at Alfred Hitchcock’s Psycho to see how Scylla’s fender got into the pond–cars float, briefly, before they sink).
As the Red Sea is wide but not too wide to be crossed in a couple of days at most by rowing-power alone, it’s perfectly logical to expect a whole bunch of junk strewn all over its bottom, probably at regular crossing points. Citing such a find as “evidence” of the parting of the Red Sea is a classic example of finding what you want to find, while excluding considered thought.
The smirking referenced above pretty much covers it. He has already been taught myriad arguments which appear to be at least internally consistent, but hold no water when compared with objective observations.
I should note that my conversation with him was not (intentionally at least) confrontational, or an attempt on my part to convince him that everything he knows is wrong. I don’t see that as my role, and I’m sure his parents would agree with me on that point. I was pretty much giving him some alternative (read: rational) explanations for the observations he was making. He liked his own explanations better.
Sigh.
-Ed
How would the evidence point to the truth of the Bible anyway? While I’m sure may people would like it to do just that, archaeology and religion are two separate (but closely connected) studies.
[sub]this is the bit where I could be very wrong - tell me if we in fact don’t know these things[/sub]
We have found evidence of a palace on Crete, and evidence that civilisations in the Mediterranean were once destroyed by volcanic activity. Does this prove that all the Greek legends about Atlantis and the Minotaur’s labyrinth are true? We have evidence that Jesus, Mahommed [sub]sp?[/sub] and Buddha all existed. Does this mean they all did what they are claimed to have done? All three religions can’t be completely true…
I doubt there is, or ever was, a popular religion that was not based on historical facts, or events that really happened. Sure, they may have been distorted through the telling of the story, but now we can look at these chariot wheels (if they exist) and say “So that’s how the story of the parting of the Red Sea originated.” It does not prove that everything in the Bible happened literally.